Improving the Tonfa

[Kazander]

I honestly think what you are describing comes under GURPS resolution as the Weapon Master advantage. The video you linked to gives evidence to this (IMO). It's the difference between someone who is merely skilled (i.e. trained with a light club), vs someone who has the benefit of generations of skilled knowledge passed down in how to generate real power with a light weapon (relative to other battlefield weapons). WM would give a ST 10 user +2 to both swing and thrust, which is enough to bring the damage up to the level you are looking for.

Note that this doesn't mean every real life trained practitioner of the tonfa/tonkwa is a "Weapon Master", it means only that this is how the GURPS game handles this kind of difference.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Kazander

I honestly think what you are describing comes under GURPS resolution as the Weapon Master advantage. The video you linked to gives evidence to this (IMO). It's the difference between someone who is merely skilled (i.e. trained with a light club), vs someone who has the benefit of generations of skilled knowledge passed down in how to generate real power with a light weapon (relative to other battlefield weapons). WM would give a ST 10 user +2 to both swing and thrust, which is enough to bring the damage up to the level you are looking for.

Note that this doesn't mean every real life trained practitioner of the tonfa/tonkwa is a "Weapon Master", it means only that this is how the GURPS game handles this kind of difference.

Weapon Master is not a realistic trait. It does not represent real martial artists, even real martial arts masters.

Personally, I'd just put it to 'martial artists are strong', and the fact that people aren't actually that hard to break. +2 ST over Gollum's expectation explains the results just as well as tonfas actually being way more awesome than other virtually-identical sticks.

[Dustin]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Something like swing+2 would fit, in my humble opinion.

Yikes! That's the same as a lot of unbalanced maces (Small Mace or Round Mace), or as a 6-foot staff (4 lbs) being swung in *both* hands. Seems excessive to me - I can't see the available mass and leverage of a tonfa achieving comparable striking force.

[Kazander]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Weapon Master is not a realistic trait. It does not represent real martial artists, even real martial arts masters.

I never claimed it was.

Personally, I'd just put it to 'martial artists are strong', and the fact that people aren't actually that hard to break. +2 ST over Gollum's expectation explains the results just as well as tonfas actually being way more awesome than other virtually-identical sticks.

I would make it +2 Striking ST, to represent that 'martial artists know how to hit hard' rather than '...are strong'. YMMV.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Kazander

I never claimed it was.

Were you not talking about Gollum's claims about the real performance of tonfas?

Originally Posted by Kazander

I would make it +2 Striking ST, to represent that 'martial artists know how to hit hard' rather than '...are strong'. YMMV.

I probably wouldn't, but some of it could come from Trained ST benefits if one were to generalize those from Technical Grappling.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by adm

I'll raise you the Compound Bow. A massive improvement in usability that could have been created by Rome, if not earlier.

I strongly doubt it. The cams on a compound bow are pretty impressive bits of machinery, and likely require higher tolerances (and better steel) than you are going to have before about TL5. I'm not sure that natural fiber strings would be up for it either, at minimum friction with the cam seems like it could be pretty hard on them.

Well, and better understanding of mechanics than exists before then to design in the first place, though that's something that could presumably be done through trial and error.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Kazander

I honestly think what you are describing comes under GURPS resolution as the Weapon Master advantage. The video you linked to gives evidence to this (IMO). It's the difference between someone who is merely skilled (i.e. trained with a light club), vs someone who has the benefit of generations of skilled knowledge passed down in how to generate real power with a light weapon (relative to other battlefield weapons). WM would give a ST 10 user +2 to both swing and thrust, which is enough to bring the damage up to the level you are looking for.

Note that this doesn't mean every real life trained practitioner of the tonfa/tonkwa is a "Weapon Master", it means only that this is how the GURPS game handles this kind of difference.

The problem of Weapon Master, as said by Ulzgoroth, is that it is not supposed to be a realistic advantage. Having said that, your solution is an elegant one.

[adm]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I strongly doubt it. The cams on a compound bow are pretty impressive bits of machinery, and likely require higher tolerances (and better steel) than you are going to have before about TL5. I'm not sure that natural fiber strings would be up for it either, at minimum friction with the cam seems like it could be pretty hard on them.

Well, and better understanding of mechanics than exists before then to design in the first place, though that's something that could presumably be done through trial and error.

The original compound bow, and cams, were wooden, put together by a tinkerer in his garage. Having seen early ones on display, they could have been built much earlier, not unlike stirrups.

My original point was intended to be that sometimes great ideas can still be found for old designs. The reason something wasn't done sooner may simply be that no one thought of it yet.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Dustin

Yikes! That's the same as a lot of unbalanced maces (Small Mace or Round Mace), or as a 6-foot staff (4 lbs) being swung in *both* hands. Seems excessive to me - I can't see the available mass and leverage of a tonfa achieving comparable striking force.

Yes... For the 6 feet staff, no problem. We are using bo of about this length and I am almost sure that a tonkwa hits harder*. In my humble opinion, the explanation is simple: the circle move of the tonkwa makes the speed of its end faster than the one that once can reach with a two handed wooden weapon. Furthermore, the specific tonkwa's shape improves its acceleration (with different mass repartitions : the tonkwa, like a mace, is unbalanced)...

But for the comparison with the small mace and the round mace, it is a problem, indeed. It really sounds exaggerated. A metal weapon logically hits harder... Especially against armors!

Having said that, here again, in collisions, the speed is more important than the weight.

We are at the limits of GURPS granularity, actually.

_____

* I never made any scientific experiment to prove it, though.

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Yes... And it's neihter realistic. Being very good at karate doesn't make someone being very good with tonkwa or any other weapon. It would be like saying than being very good with guns make you being very good with bows (or vice versa) because you learned to aim.

There is an argument that it's important for skills to be fairly constant in broadness. +1 skill level in GURPS Karate gives you +1 to hit any location of any kind of foe wielding any weapon with any karate technique while you're in any posture wearing any kind of equipment. Now martial artists certainly do improve in their general skill no matter the circumstances and some of those will provide things like familiarity penalties but a lot of training does also build around certain assumptions below the level of training for things like targeted attacks so that realistically your general combat ability should probably not only be lower but advance slower than fighting within the context that you trained for. Compared to things like skills handling the sciences combat skills are also already super finely grained.

Originally Posted by Gollum

Oh, I forgot to tell... Happy new year to everyone!

I really enjoy GURPS and people here because you all make me think a lot, open my points of view, understand things better... Thank you very, very much to all of you.

Have an amazing year, full of GURPS, of course, and all other things you like!

Happy new year.

Originally Posted by Gollum

The problem of Weapon Master, as said by Ulzgoroth, is that it is not supposed to be a realistic advantage. Having said that, your solution is an elegant one.

Weapon Master carries too much baggage with it. ST limited to specific applications in the same manner as the improvements unarmed skill get makes sense. That Technical Grappling's Trained ST continued in the direction of baking in them in to the skill levels rather than having them bought alongside is aggravating but ignoring that it's a mechanic with promise that could easily be applied to weapons.

Originally Posted by Gollum

Yes... For the 6 feet staff, no problem. We are using bo of about this length and I am almost sure that a tonkwa hits harder*. In my humble opinion, the explanation is simple: the circle move of the tonkwa makes the speed of its end faster than the one that once can reach with a two handed wooden weapon. Furthermore, the specific tonkwa's shape improves its acceleration (with different mass repartitions : the tonkwa, like a mace, is unbalanced)...

I could see an argument for a tonfa being increased to sw +1 cr/thr +1 cr but I just can't see a tonfa hitting as hard as weapons longer than it wielded with both hands.

Originally Posted by Gollum

But for the comparison with the small mace and the round mace, it is a problem, indeed. It really sounds exaggerated. A metal weapon logically hits harder... Especially against armors!

A metal weapon doesn't automatically hit harder at all. It has better material properties for penetrating armour, is easier to make in certain useful shapes and you can stuff more weight into a convenient shape if you want, but metal absolutely doesn't automatically get a damage bonus.

Originally Posted by Gollum

Having said that, here again, in collisions, the speed is more important than the weight.

Weight is very important in determining what damage weapons do.