Groin Shots

[lugaid]

This is a suggestion for greater realism in games. There has long been an issue in GURPS in which an attack to the genital region is more effective on "male" characters (presumably characters with male external genital organs) than "female" ones (which would seem to be characters with female external genital organs). The problem is that both types of external genital organs are subject to broadly similar, if different in some details, effects when experiencing traumatic injury. I'd propose that all characters without appropriate Injury Tolerance should take double shock and increased knockdown penalties from crushing attacks, and this probably should be incorporated as an official correction.

For those who don't believe it to be the case, there is a whole category of YouTube videos documenting female groin trauma in women's soccer/football, martial arts, and similar situations (and there are also male "nut shot" videos, of course, but I doubt anyone is going to contest those), for example this playlist.

Yes, it's a fringe case, and yes, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference in the game as a whole, but it is an area in which, it seems, sexist jokes about "nut shots" have affected design decisions in place of the usual GURPS commitment to accuracy.

[Pursuivant]

FWIW, the Society for Creative Anachronism has defined female armor standards for both Light Weapons (i.e., rapier play) and Heavy Weapons (i.e., full contact stick fighting) fighters. Both standards require the groin to be armored.

As a slight rules simplification, it makes sense for "generic humanoids" to have the same combat vulnerabilities regardless of sex.

[Otaku]

Hmm...

Could the typical differences between male genitals and female genitals explain why it is handled differently? Really asking, as this is one of the many areas where I'm pretty clueless. I've longer than I can clearly remember that yeah, it isn't pleasant for someone with female genitals to take a hit there, but for years I guess I just assumed that the difference between the two was significant enough to warrant RAW handling things how it does.

I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of how much injury must be taken, and how hard it is (or is not) to target the groin under these differing circumstances.

[Varyon]

From what I understand, on humans a groin hit is indeed more painful/incapacitating to an intact male than to a female or a eunuch, although at GURPS levels of resolution it would probably be OK to ignore this and treat the hit location equally for all sexes. Honestly, while -3 is arguably appropriate for targeting the pelvis, actually striking someone in the genitals should have a higher associated penalty (probably -5 or -6). I'd say such a hit should be treated similarly to a strike to the solar plexus (Vitals for crushing attacks), with an HT roll against knockdown/stunning if it produces any Shock (HT-5 for a Major Wound), but no increased Shock penalty (getting hit in the solar plexus also hurts quite a bit).

Bio Tech suggests males who lack any sort of groin vulnerability have an Advantage worth [2] (Testicle Tuck, Bio172). Under the above revision, I'd suggest if you opt to still have males suffer increased Shock, that's worth [-1]; meanwhile, a character who lacks the above weakness has an Advantage worth [1].

[SolemnGolem]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Hmm...

Could the typical differences between male genitals and female genitals explain why it is handled differently?

The organs that actually produce the cells required for reproduction are indeed surrounded by visceral pain nerve endings. This means that the pain felt is far greater than usual nerve endings (and, in fact, matches the pain of being punched in your liver or kidneys... note that GURPS also has penalties for taking hits to your vitals, and they're pretty similar to being hit in the groin!).

In women, the relevant structures are higher up in the pelvis, closer to the lower belly. In men, they're inconveniently located in a "funnel" created by the inner thighs, so that a rising attack like a kick will easily be funnelled by the natural shape of the legs directly into the vulnerable area.

It probably also differs from person to person. But I'd estimate the difference might be: pain to standard tissue (imagine somebody flicking your earlobe) vs. pain to high-sensitivity tissue like visceral nerve endings (imagine somebody flicking your eyeball).

I've also been in the presence of a female friend who took an (accidental) strike to the groin during a contact sport - her reaction showed that it's definitely not a trivial thing for a woman either. Though whether it's as debilitating as for a man, is unclear.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Varyon

From what I understand, on humans a groin hit is indeed more painful/incapacitating to an intact male than to a female or a eunuch, although at GURPS levels of resolution it would probably be OK to ignore this and treat the hit location equally for all sexes. Honestly, while -3 is arguably appropriate for targeting the pelvis, actually striking someone in the genitals should have a higher associated penalty (probably -5 or -6). I'd say such a hit should be treated similarly to a strike to the solar plexus (Vitals for crushing attacks), with an HT roll against knockdown/stunning if it produces any Shock (HT-5 for a Major Wound), but no increased Shock penalty (getting hit in the solar plexus also hurts quite a bit).

That's in some ways more bothersome than the current rules, which don't require a knockdown roll on groin hits unless you take a major wound (and then it's HT-5).

[GWJ]

Yeah, I always treat groin shots as vital shots (with rules for crushing dmg from Martial Arts) :P It's just silly for me, that you can withstand strong nutshot and don't go to ground

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by GWJ

Yeah, I always treat groin shots as vital shots (with rules for crushing dmg from Martial Arts) :P It's just silly for me, that you can withstand strong nutshot and don't go to ground

HT-5 if it's a big hit is a pretty serious roll for most characters. Of course, hitting a Berserker like that might not have the effect you expected.

Originally Posted by GWJ

Yeah, I always treat groin shots as vital shots (with rules for crushing dmg from Martial Arts) :P It's just silly for me, that you can withstand strong nutshot and don't go to ground

I've taken full hits to the groin and kept fighting, unwavered. I've also taken light taps to the groin and dropped like a stone. I think that's well represented in the vagaries of the dice roll.