Tech Level Question

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I think it's fair to say that superscience TLs aren't always arbitrary. Often, even usually, it isn't completely standing apart from the non-^ technology. Instead it's grounded in a certain amount of real science and technology, plus cheats. For instance, broadcast power makes sense at TL6, where electrical technology has begun to take off - but what would it even mean at TL3?

(Silly proto-seed: a setting with broadcast rotary power delivered via special receiver shafts, and drawn mainly from great waterwheels. Windmills and steam engines probably used in some cases.

Sillier, or less silly? Broadcast steam power, with relatively small devices that can remotely tap vast central boilers. Obviously these will be weaponized as steam rockets, steam cannons, and horrific short-ranged steam-throwers, in addition to making mobile steam engines much more compact and convenient.)

That isn't to say UT uses #^ TL asignments well, though.

We have to be careful because with something like broadcast power there is what the real world calls "broadcast power" (actually Wireless power transfer) and what GURPS calls "broadcast power".

Those little Crystal radio sets that had no battery and were powered way that radio signals themselves is a form of real world broadcast power.

With regards to "silly" there is Henry Tuttledove and his "Road not Taken" a prequel to "Herbig-Haro" which had FTL space flight achievable by Bronze Age people (TL1) What does non magical TL1^ FTL spaceflight even look like? "Road not Taken" shows us TL5^ FTL but it still feels "off".

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Silly proto-seed: a setting with broadcast rotary power delivered via special receiver shafts

Hm. I kinda like it. The Laws of Contagion, Sympathy and Similarity allow you to link the two halves of a once-whole shaft, or any two of a set manufactured together from a common batch. Spin the transmitter shaft attached to a water wheel, and the receiver spins in tandem, wherever it may be. Quite handy for auto-motive wagons, as well as locations without access to decent mill streams.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by maximara

With regards to "silly" there is Henry Tuttledove and his "Road not Taken" a prequel to "Herbig-Haro" which had FTL space flight achievable by Bronze Age people (TL1) What does non magical TL1^ FTL spaceflight even look like? "Road not Taken" shows us TL5^ FTL but it still feels "off".

What's the "non magical" distinction here, really? Road not Taken has interstellar surface-to-surface teleportation, basically. I don't know what's 'off' or 'silly' about it, as such, though it's pretty thoroughly undeveloped at least within that story.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Hm. I kinda like it. The Laws of Contagion, Sympathy and Similarity allow you to link the two halves of a once-whole shaft, or any two of a set manufactured together from a common batch. Spin the transmitter shaft attached to a water wheel, and the receiver spins in tandem, wherever it may be. Quite handy for auto-motive wagons, as well as locations without access to decent mill streams.

Oh, potentially much more than that. A well-engineered teledrive shaft can have a ridiculously high power to weight ratio at the recieving end because there's no need to convert the delivered power. Within the reach of the transmission, powered flight could take off very very early.

Also self-propelled naval torpedoes probably appear earlier and with much higher performance for much the same reason.

And if you can build them small, various rotary-drive appliances are accessible. On a particularly PC-facing side of things, a powered crossbow winch would be pretty simple...

[dcarson]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

What's the "non magical" distinction here, really? Road not Taken has interstellar surface-to-surface teleportation, basically. I don't know what's 'off' or 'silly' about it, as such, though it's pretty thoroughly undeveloped at least within that story.

Unless we are thinking of different stories they had FTL not teleportation. The troops were worried about the air getting stale and if they were going to be one of the expeditions that is never heard back from because they didn't find a planet where they could get fresh air in time. The ship was 1600s in tech except for the antigrav and FTL so no lifesupport and lighting was candles.

[David Johnston2]

Yeah. I think it only use it for anti-gravity at TL 1 though. The FTL applications come a couple of TL's later. After all once you get FTL the entire species becomes stupid.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by dcarson

Unless we are thinking of different stories they had FTL not teleportation. The troops were worried about the air getting stale and if they were going to be one of the expeditions that is never heard back from because they didn't find a planet where they could get fresh air in time. The ship was 1600s in tech except for the antigrav and FTL so no lifesupport and lighting was candles.

Either we are or I'm very badly misremembering it. The version I remembered was a whole lot shorter, and I'm pretty sure there was only one ship in it.

The version I'm finding now has contragrav/reactionless propulsion as well as FTL, for sure.

The life support situation was basically the same, though.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

What's the "non magical" distinction here, really? Road not Taken has interstellar surface-to-surface teleportation, basically. I don't know what's 'off' or 'silly' about it, as such, though it's pretty thoroughly undeveloped at least within that story.

"Captain Togram was using the chamberpot when the Indomitable broke out of hyperdrive. As happened all too often, nausea surged through the Roxolan officer. He raised the pot and was abruptly sick into it."

So we're talking something like what is seen in Star Wars. When the get to Earth they have to get to the surface normally (frustrating a fighter pilot as they do so)

By "off" I mean if you believe in the Connections theory of technology in that the story implies that once hyperdrive and contragravity are discovered tech development effectively shuts down...with one exception (unless like Earth they also took the Road Not Travel and somebody blundered onto their world and got clobbered)

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Yeah. I think it only use it for anti-gravity at TL 1 though. The FTL applications come a couple of TL's later. After all once you get FTL the entire species becomes stupid.

As far as I can determine the FTL and countergravity go hand and hand as they are talking about FTL when they refer to "that race that flew bronze ships because they couldn't smelt iron" ( Herbig-Haro ) .

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by maximara

"Captain Togram was using the chamberpot when the Indomitable broke out of hyperdrive. As happened all too often, nausea surged through the Roxolan officer. He raised the pot and was abruptly sick into it."

So we're talking something like what is seen in Star Wars. When the get to Earth they have to get to the surface normally (frustrating a fighter pilot as they do so)

The word 'hyperdrive' doesn't really conflict with my description, but yeah, it's very very different from my recollection.

Originally Posted by maximara

By "off" I mean if you believe in the Connections theory of technology in that the story implies that once hyperdrive and contragravity are discovered tech development effectively shuts down...with one exception (unless like Earth they also took the Road Not Travel and somebody blundered onto their world and got clobbered)

I don't know what you mean by "Connections theory" or, having just read the story, what you mean by the one exception.

[newton]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

What's the "non magical" distinction here, really? Road not Taken has interstellar surface-to-surface teleportation, basically. I don't know what's 'off' or 'silly' about it, as such, though it's pretty thoroughly undeveloped at least within that story.

Oh, potentially much more than that. A well-engineered teledrive shaft can have a ridiculously high power to weight ratio at the recieving end because there's no need to convert the delivered power. Within the reach of the transmission, powered flight could take off very very early.

Also self-propelled naval torpedoes probably appear earlier and with much higher performance for much the same reason.

And if you can build them small, various rotary-drive appliances are accessible. On a particularly PC-facing side of things, a powered crossbow winch would be pretty simple...

or you could circumvent the invention of radio and create special dials with them that you could use for communication... that’s actually a cool fantasy setting idea

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

As far as I can determine the FTL and countergravity go hand and hand as they are talking about FTL when they refer to "that race that flew bronze ships because they couldn't smelt iron" ( Herbig-Haro ) .

Yeah but those guys were unusual enough to be noticed. The typical guys were at least iron age and topped out at TL 4. Even if the same super science can both get you into space and go FTL they still have have to have advanced enough enough metallurgy to create large air-tight vessels to make use of the FTL.