All Out Attack, Simple Question

LeganFuh · 02-03-2010, 04:54 AM

Hey guys, im still a rookie in GURPS and so i have some problems with basics.

A character uses a saber an chooses all out attack(double). Does this mean the char has two attacks without mod and NO act. defense?

raven_walker · 02-03-2010, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeganFuh

Hey guys, im still a rookie in GURPS and so i have some problems with basics.

A character uses a saber an chooses all out attack(double). Does this mean the char has two attacks without mod and NO act. defense?

Yes, that's it exactly.

LeganFuh · 02-03-2010, 05:21 AM

But i think a commen opponend has only one try to defence and so this way of fighting is extreamly powerful if the AOA(double)-guy ist the faster.

Abin Sur · 02-03-2010, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeganFuh

But i think a commen opponend has only one try to defence and so this way of fighting is extreamly powerful if the AOA(double)-guy ist the faster.

The opponent gets to defend against both attacks in the AOA (double). I.e., two rolls.

aesir23 · 02-03-2010, 05:33 AM

No, it's not that hard to defend twice in a round.

He can dodge both attacks,
dodge or block one and parry the other,
parry each with a separate weapon,
or parry both with the same weapon with the second parry at -4.

All Out Attack (Feint and Attack) is really much more effective in my experience, but I'd never recommend using All Out Attack when you have other options.

mlangsdorf · 02-03-2010, 05:42 AM

No, All-Out Attack is a good way to die.

Assuming your opponent didn't also make an All-Out Attack, he gets one defense PER ATTACK. Sure, only one or two of them are any good - a block and a parry, usually - but your opponent can make additional parries at -4 (or -2 with fencing weapons or TbaM/WM, or -1 for TbaM/WM and a fencing weapon) or make unlimited dodges, as well as make one Retreat that counts against all of one foe's attacks. Even a skill-22 saber master who can afford to make Deceptive Attacks at -6, imposing a -3 penalty to defenses, will effectively miss about 1 in 64 of his attacks against an unarmed, average man who has a yard of space to retreat into. That goes up to 1 in 4 against a foe with weapon skill 14, shield skill 14, and a medium shield. Saber fighters with lower skill levels obviously do worse.

If the target survives the All-Out attack, the saber master gets no defenses. He's going to take damage unless he's very heavily armored. If the game is using the Telegraphed Attack option from Martial Arts, even heavy armor won't hope, because it isn't too hard to hit the eyes with a +4 to attack and no defenses from the target.

And all this is assuming a 1 on 1 duel. 1 saber master against 2 mediocre fighters dies in seconds if he All-Out attacks, since he can't reliably kill one of them in a single round, much less both of them. It only takes a few unblocked hits to kill most GURPS characters.

All-Out attack is only a viable option for characters with enough armor to absorb most blows, enough HP to survive getting hit a few times by the blows that penetrate armor, High Pain Threshold, a full helmet that protects the eyes, and access to extremely fast healing. Even then, it fails against skilled foes that can weather the initial attacks and counterattack while targeting chinks in armor. Or against grapplers: a character with Wrestling or Judo 16 has a decent chance of grabbing your arm and putting you in an Arm Lock with a Rapid Strike, especially if he can use a Telegraphed Attack.

davidtmoore · 02-03-2010, 05:43 AM

Or you can go bug-out crazy and AOA (Double) with one Rapid Strike/Flurry of Blows. Booyah!

Ahem. But yeah, All-Out Attack is usually pretty reckless. You'd only use it if:

a) You were attacking by surprise and wanted to dish out the maximum hurt before the guy got a chance to snap out of it;

b) He's stunned and can't do anything about it;

c) You were really confident of dishing out enough hurt that he'd be stunned/unconscious before his next turn;

d) You were basically guaranteed not to get hurt if he did counterattack (high DR etc.).

mlangsdorf · 02-03-2010, 07:16 AM

To the previous point, it's hard to be invulnerable in GURPS. People with impaling/piercing weapons can target chinks in the armor or the eyes to reduce effective DR or avoid it entirely while doing massive damage. People with cutting or crushing weapons can target the neck or hands, which can be armored but usually not as much as the rest of the body.

Also, grapplers are terribly effective against people who make All-Out Attacks. A Rapid Strike to grab both arms is two attacks at -7, or -3 if telegraphed, and if successful it nearly completely hoses the AOA'er. An arm grab and arm lock is another nasty combination. Normally grapplers don't try those kinds of tricks against people with weapons, because weapon parries will cut the grappler up, but the AOA'er doesn't have that ability.

02-03-2010, 04:54 AM	#1
LeganFuh Join Date: Sep 2009	All Out Attack, Simple Question Hey guys, im still a rookie in GURPS and so i have some problems with basics. A character uses a saber an chooses all out attack(double). Does this mean the char has two attacks without mod and NO act. defense?

02-03-2010, 05:21 AM	#3
LeganFuh Join Date: Sep 2009	Re: All Out Attack, Simple Question But i think a commen opponend has only one try to defence and so this way of fighting is extreamly powerful if the AOA(double)-guy ist the faster.

02-03-2010, 05:33 AM	#5
aesir23 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Vermont	Re: All Out Attack, Simple Question No, it's not that hard to defend twice in a round. He can dodge both attacks, dodge or block one and parry the other, parry each with a separate weapon, or parry both with the same weapon with the second parry at -4. All Out Attack (Feint and Attack) is really much more effective in my experience, but I'd never recommend using All Out Attack when you have other options. __________________ My ongoing thread of GURPS versions of DC Comics characters.

02-03-2010, 05:42 AM	#6
mlangsdorf Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Austin, TX	Re: All Out Attack, Simple Question No, All-Out Attack is a good way to die. Assuming your opponent didn't also make an All-Out Attack, he gets one defense PER ATTACK. Sure, only one or two of them are any good - a block and a parry, usually - but your opponent can make additional parries at -4 (or -2 with fencing weapons or TbaM/WM, or -1 for TbaM/WM and a fencing weapon) or make unlimited dodges, as well as make one Retreat that counts against all of one foe's attacks. Even a skill-22 saber master who can afford to make Deceptive Attacks at -6, imposing a -3 penalty to defenses, will effectively miss about 1 in 64 of his attacks against an unarmed, average man who has a yard of space to retreat into. That goes up to 1 in 4 against a foe with weapon skill 14, shield skill 14, and a medium shield. Saber fighters with lower skill levels obviously do worse. If the target survives the All-Out attack, the saber master gets no defenses. He's going to take damage unless he's very heavily armored. If the game is using the Telegraphed Attack option from Martial Arts, even heavy armor won't hope, because it isn't too hard to hit the eyes with a +4 to attack and no defenses from the target. And all this is assuming a 1 on 1 duel. 1 saber master against 2 mediocre fighters dies in seconds if he All-Out attacks, since he can't reliably kill one of them in a single round, much less both of them. It only takes a few unblocked hits to kill most GURPS characters. All-Out attack is only a viable option for characters with enough armor to absorb most blows, enough HP to survive getting hit a few times by the blows that penetrate armor, High Pain Threshold, a full helmet that protects the eyes, and access to extremely fast healing. Even then, it fails against skilled foes that can weather the initial attacks and counterattack while targeting chinks in armor. Or against grapplers: a character with Wrestling or Judo 16 has a decent chance of grabbing your arm and putting you in an Arm Lock with a Rapid Strike, especially if he can use a Telegraphed Attack. Last edited by mlangsdorf; 02-03-2010 at 07:07 AM.

02-03-2010, 05:43 AM	#7
davidtmoore Join Date: Dec 2009	Re: All Out Attack, Simple Question Or you can go bug-out crazy and AOA (Double) with one Rapid Strike/Flurry of Blows. Booyah! Ahem. But yeah, All-Out Attack is usually pretty reckless. You'd only use it if: a) You were attacking by surprise and wanted to dish out the maximum hurt before the guy got a chance to snap out of it; b) He's stunned and can't do anything about it; c) You were really confident of dishing out enough hurt that he'd be stunned/unconscious before his next turn; d) You were basically guaranteed not to get hurt if he did counterattack (high DR etc.).

02-03-2010, 07:16 AM	#8
mlangsdorf Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Austin, TX	Re: All Out Attack, Simple Question To the previous point, it's hard to be invulnerable in GURPS. People with impaling/piercing weapons can target chinks in the armor or the eyes to reduce effective DR or avoid it entirely while doing massive damage. People with cutting or crushing weapons can target the neck or hands, which can be armored but usually not as much as the rest of the body. Also, grapplers are terribly effective against people who make All-Out Attacks. A Rapid Strike to grab both arms is two attacks at -7, or -3 if telegraphed, and if successful it nearly completely hoses the AOA'er. An arm grab and arm lock is another nasty combination. Normally grapplers don't try those kinds of tricks against people with weapons, because weapon parries will cut the grappler up, but the AOA'er doesn't have that ability.