Polearm vs. Axe/Mace AND Spear?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The trick about this one is that the "special" skill nature of this reflects the ability to capture your foe's weapon with the prongs.

Except there's no equivalent skill for swords with fan cuillions other than the binding technique.

As long as we are listing:
I like Poly's list but would add.

• Fold Beam Weapons into Guns and just have Pistol and Longarm skills.
• Same deal with gunner: Shoulder-Fired, Crew-Served Guns, Missiles and Cannon.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

• Fold Beam Weapons into Guns and just have Pistol and Longarm skills.
• Same deal with gunner: Shoulder-Fired, Crew-Served Guns, Missiles and Cannon.

Why are you doing away with the LAW class of Guns, and introducing shoulder-fired weapons into Gunner? Anything you fire from the shoulder is normally some form of Guns.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Why are you doing away with the LAW class of Guns, and introducing shoulder-fired weapons into Gunner? Anything you fire from the shoulder is normally some form of Guns.

Sure, whatever. Doesn't matter. I just figured it was Gunner without reference to books because Assaultman is a specialized MOS and things like the Javelin and the SMAW are considered crew-served weapons.

The point is that Shoulder-Fired Beams should be the same deal.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by aesir23

What do you mean by this? The axe was a very common weapon among Vikings, Franks and other dark age Europeans, and there are certainly many axes made specifically for combat available from the high middle ages and later.

I hardly think that you can say that the axe has "no historical or traditional arts".

Careful there, and note that I used the present tense not some form of the past. Here are the definitions I am using.

A traditional martial art is one which is passed on continuously from teacher to student for several generations. Can you name any traditional martial art today which covers a big axe with a three-foot haft used in one hand?

A historical martial art is one which is described by didactic works whose authors are dead. Can you name any historical martial art today which covers a big axe with a three-foot haft used in one hand?

These categories sometimes overlap and sometimes do not. 19th century Italian fencing is both, 17th century Italian fencing is historical but not traditional, some Japanese ryuha are traditional but not historical.

Both traditional and historical martial arts tend to focus on unarmed, swords, staff weapons, and bows (or guns in the last 150 years).

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Except there's no equivalent skill for swords with fan cuillions other than the binding technique.

As long as we are listing:
I like Poly's list but would add.

• Fold Beam Weapons into Guns and just have Pistol and Longarm skills.
• Same deal with gunner: Shoulder-Fired, Crew-Served Guns, Missiles and Cannon.

I can’t comment there, because I don’t shoot and haven’t studied historial shooting training. I have heard conflicting opinions about whether a 'realistic' man-portable beam weapon would resemble using a gun more than using a video camera. Certainly, maintenance is likely to be very different.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

A historical martial art is one which is described by didactic works whose authors are dead. Can you name any historical martial art today which covers a big axe with a three-foot haft used in one hand?

I've seen a Fechtbuch about danish pollaxes that had some one handed grips.

I can’t comment there, because I don’t shoot and haven’t studied historial shooting training. I have heard conflicting opinions about whether a 'realistic' man-portable beam weapon would resemble using a gun more than using a video camera. Certainly, maintenance is likely to be very different.

Which I think all falls into familiarity and TL penalties.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

A traditional martial art is one which is passed on continuously from teacher to student for several generations. Can you name any traditional martial art today which covers a big axe with a three-foot haft used in one hand?

A historical martial art is one which is described by didactic works whose authors are dead. Can you name any historical martial art today which covers a big axe with a three-foot haft used in one hand?

Sorry if I came across as rude. I thought you were trying to imply that axes weren't historically used in martial arts, not that the techniques weren't passed down. You didn't define your terms, which you're using very specifically.

You also did not specify "big axe with a three-foot haft" in your previous post. This seems needlessly specific.

I consider speculative reconscrution to be completely adequete for gaming purposes. It opens the door to a lot of of historical martial arts that weren't preserved. If people experimenting with Axe and Shield combat have found that occassionally thrusting with the axe can help to win fights, that's good enough for my GURPS game.

That's not our only option, however. Shorter one-handed axes are taught in forms of traditional kung-fu and (IIRC) in kubodo. Longer, two-handed poleaxes are tought both in these same traditional Asian arts and are demonstrated in historical fechtbuch.

With a little additional research, either of these should be sufficient to determine whether or not Thrusting was a viable technique that might have been used in other older styles with different axes.

[Polydamas]

I didn't mean to be ill-tempered; I am under a lot of pressure lately. I did capitalize Axe to mark it as the term of art. Draeger and Smith don’t mention any axe or mace techniques in their discussion of traditional Chinese martial arts, so I wonder if the maces in Wushu are something added in the past 60 years. Again, I'm not familiar with any Chinese styles which use axes of any size.

As for "* in two hands" styles which teach one or two one-handed techniques, they may not teach the full one-handed skill in GURPS terms. Someone who learns a sword in two hands style, but sometimes does an AoA (Long) with one hand on the pommel, is probably using a default (or a technique from Two-Handed Sword, or a Perk "One handed AoA (Long) defaults to Two-Handed Sword skill"). GURPS is pretty brutal on fighters who have more than two main weapon skills.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Draeger and Smith don’t mention any axe or mace techniques in their discussion of traditional Chinese martial arts, so I wonder if the maces in Wushu are something added in the past 60 years. Again, I'm not familiar with any Chinese styles which use axes of any size.

It's not terribly common, but some axe fighting forms have survived in several Chinese martial arts. (Axe/Mace Art is probably most common.)

Here's an article about it.

And here's a cheesy video of someone practicing Wushu forms for double axes.

[EDIT] I'm sure Draeger and Smith is a great resource, but no one book can cover Asian fighting arts exhaustively. There are literally hundreds of styles in China alone.