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Old 05-27-2015, 08:22 AM   #1
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Only Kind of Unkillable

I've been reviewing a DF racial template I've been working on, and have decided the variant of Unkillable 2 I have isn't really what I want.

To skip a long story, what I think will work best would actually be a variant of Unkillable 1. Instead of it outright preventing death until -10xHP, however, it would still allow the character to be killed normally, but so long as he isn't dropped to -10xHP (total destruction) he'll recover from damage normally (as for Unkillable 2), eventually coming back to life.

I'm thinking somewhere around a -50% Limitation on Unkillable might be appropriate, putting the trait at [25] (I'll probably use this as the base cost for the trait for modifying it further). Does this sound about right?
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Old 05-27-2015, 08:33 AM   #2
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Only Kind of Unkillable

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
To skip a long story, what I think will work best would actually be a variant of Unkillable 1. Instead of it outright preventing death until -10xHP, however, it would still allow the character to be killed normally, but so long as he isn't dropped to -10xHP (total destruction) he'll recover from damage normally (as for Unkillable 2), eventually coming back to life.

I'm thinking somewhere around a -50% Limitation on Unkillable might be appropriate, putting the trait at [25] (I'll probably use this as the base cost for the trait for modifying it further). Does this sound about right?
I'm afraid that I don't think you've limited Unkillable I very much. you seem to be going from the default "Falls down when fails Consciousness Check. Eventually gets up again as long as he doesn't go to -10xHP" to "falls down when fails Consciousness check _or_ Death Check but isn't really dead to -10xHP".

You have to make what are effectively a few more Consciousness rolls but stil keeping that important "-10xHP" thing essentially unchanged. I'd make it something like a -10 or 20% rather than -50%.
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Old 05-27-2015, 09:30 AM   #3
ericthered
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Default Re: Only Kind of Unkillable

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I'm afraid that I don't think you've limited Unkillable I very much. you seem to be going from the default "Falls down when fails Consciousness Check. Eventually gets up again as long as he doesn't go to -10xHP" to "falls down when fails Consciousness check _or_ Death Check but isn't really dead to -10xHP".

You have to make what are effectively a few more Consciousness rolls but stil keeping that important "-10xHP" thing essentially unchanged. I'd make it something like a -10 or 20% rather than -50%.
seconded. This is almost all of unkillable one, it just has a few more ways to be unconscious.
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Old 05-27-2015, 09:36 AM   #4
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Only Kind of Unkillable

I see what you're getting at, but I should note that, for characters with Unkillable 2 or 3, the general consensus (according to PK) was somewhere around -20%, or between [-20] (Unkillable 2) and [-30] (Unkillable 3), to not get the benefit of ignoring death until at -10xHP. I split the difference, going with [-25] (thus -50%) instead.

There are a lot of advantages to not dieing that Unkillable 1 benefits from but my suggested trait doesn't. With high HT and/or the cheap Hard to Subdue, you can stay in the fight a good deal longer. Failing that, you only need to make consciousness rolls if making strenuous actions, so you can potentially get yourself to a safer location (decreasing the chance of someone getting you to -10xHP) and help direct the battle. Once combat is over, a character with Unkillable 1 who passed out can be woken up and then can move around under his own power, while one who "died" with my suggested trait will have to be carried/dragged around until he revives, which may take some time. In a setting with healing magic, a character with Unkillable 1 can be healed normally, while one with my trait should have to heal on its own (or get a raise dead style spell).
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Old 05-27-2015, 11:46 AM   #5
naloth
 
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Default Re: Only Kind of Unkillable

I'd have to discuss the mechanics of "being dead, but not permanently". If you go into a coma like state there's no reason healing shouldn't work on you normally. Even if you heal "naturally" at -50% you're getting few points you can spend towards Regeneration.

The part that I would worry about is that at sat 2 HP/day "normal" healing, if you revive at positive HP (like UK2/3), your time dead (presuming you die at -HT or -1.5 x HT) will be over a week - more than enough time to be buried or cremated. If your secret is known, enemies can hack you to -10xHT and allies will bear the burden of rescuing your corpse.

Why not just go with Hard to Kill (enough to get to 18 or so) plus Luck (re-roll death checks only -80%)? You can also add +HP for extended HP checks (-80% only to increase your death check threshold). It's probably in the ballpark for the cost you desire with a similar effect.
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Old 05-27-2015, 01:38 PM   #6
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Only Kind of Unkillable

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I'd have to discuss the mechanics of "being dead, but not permanently". If you go into a coma like state there's no reason healing shouldn't work on you normally. Even if you heal "naturally" at -50% you're getting few points you can spend towards Regeneration.
It's ultimately up to the GM, but the intent is that the character is indeed dead, it's just that their body will naturally regenerate and eventually they'll come back. You could interpret instead as "mostly dead," but normal healing methods simply not working is a big part of the intent - you can't simply cast Cure Major Wounds or forcefeed them a healing potion, and First Aid and Physician are useless (Esoteric Medicine, at a penalty, might work with GM permission).

Regeneration is a potential issue, but that trait is expensive enough it probably won't be too much of an issue. The [25] you're saving is enough to buy Regular Regeneration, which will take at least 10 hours to get you back on your feet, as opposed to the (IIRC) 2 hours of falling unconscious with Unkillable 1 (less if someone wakes you up). A character with a higher level of Regeneration will see more benefits, which may well negate a good deal of the drawback. It may be appropriate to reduce the discount for characters with Fast and faster Regeneration, or for the GM to outright disallow such Regeneration from working while dead (I believe Only While "Dead" is canonically -20%, so Not While "Dead" would arguably also be -20%; alternatively, it may be appropriate to have Regeneration not work while "dead" by default, with Also While "Dead" being worth +20% or so).

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The part that I would worry about is that at sat 2 HP/day "normal" healing, if you revive at positive HP (like UK2/3), your time dead (presuming you die at -HT or -1.5 x HT) will be over a week - more than enough time to be buried or cremated. If your secret is known, enemies can hack you to -10xHT and allies will bear the burden of rescuing your corpse.
Yep. That's a big part of why I see it as a significant Limitation - you spend a lot longer incapacitated than someone with Unkillable 1, which is ample time for bad things to happen. A scavenger probably isn't going to start munching on an unconscious character during the 2 hours it takes for them to wake up (and being eaten alive would probably give you a decent chance of waking up), but a corpse that's lying around for several days is fair game - if your allies are forced to temporarily abandon your body (fighting a running battle, being forced to fall back, or you fell off a mountain), Unkillable 1 leaves you in much better shape than this trait.

For what it's worth, I actually intend to run things a little more leniently than Unkillable 2 and 3 do - rather than reviving once you have positive HP, you get an HT roll each time you recover beyond a death threshold (starting with the threshold you actually died at; if you die at -1xHP, the earliest you'll revive is just above -1xHP) as well as when you enter positive territory, and you automatically revive once you're back at full HP. However, I intend to figure out the cost of this trait ignoring that, as I see it as a combination of Feature and GM Fiat.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Why not just go with Hard to Kill (enough to get to 18 or so) plus Luck (re-roll death checks only -80%)? You can also add +HP for extended HP checks (-80% only to increase your death check threshold). It's probably in the ballpark for the cost you desire with a similar effect.
I don't see a need to come up with some complicated build that only kind-of-sort-of matches what I want. What I want is something like Unkillable 2 (No Unkillable 1) without the "indestructible skeleton" clause (so you can go below -10xHP, and die permanently at that point). This is functionally just a Limitation on Unkillable 1, I just need to figure out what it's worth.

That said, going with your suggestion, Hard to Kill 8 [16] + Luck (Death Checks Only -80%) [3] + Increased Death Threshold [20] ends up costing [39], for a -22% (round down to -20%) reduction to the price of Unkillable. Of course, that's essentially just recreating Unkillable 1 in a slightly different form, and has no real bearing on the trait I'm going after.
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Old 05-27-2015, 02:31 PM   #7
naloth
 
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Default Re: Only Kind of Unkillable

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
That said, going with your suggestion, Hard to Kill 8 [16] + Luck (Death Checks Only -80%) [3] + Increased Death Threshold [20] ends up costing [39], for a -22% (round down to -20%) reduction to the price of Unkillable. Of course, that's essentially just recreating Unkillable 1 in a slightly different form, and has no real bearing on the trait I'm going after.
Arguably slightly inferior to Unkillable 1 (as it mostly does what you desire with your trait), but it seems to imply that -20% off is closer to the correct utility. Of course, "Increased Death Threshold" seems overpriced for HP10 since you could buy +10 HP for the same cost.

Say -30% off of Unkillable 1... perhaps -40% tops.
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Old 05-27-2015, 02:48 PM   #8
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Only Kind of Unkillable

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Arguably slightly inferior to Unkillable 1 (as it mostly does what you desire with your trait), but it seems to imply that -20% off is closer to the correct utility.
It does exactly the same thing as Unkillable 1, but has around a 1 in 25,000,000 failure rate. It's a different way of getting to the same place with a lower cost, and one I'd probably* shut down as a GM, as it's just a number-crunching workaround for an existing trait. The only thing it does that my trait does as well is the same thing Unkillable 1 does already.

*Further look at the rules reveals that an unconscious character at -1xHP and lower is in worse shape than I anticipated, as they only get one HT roll to wake up at 12 hours and require assistance to wake up beyond that. As I think that negates a lot of what Unkillable 1 does for a character, I'd treat a character with Unkillable 1 as only being below 0 HP for purposes of waking up, even if he's at -9xHP. If I allowed the trait you're suggesting, I wouldn't extend the same benefit to it.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Of course, "Increased Death Threshold" seems overpriced for HP10 since you could buy +10 HP for the same cost.
For HP 10 and lower, yes. IT:DR (which it was built off of) in general tends to not be a great deal for low HP characters.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Say -30% off of Unkillable 1... perhaps -40% tops.
While I'm willing to accept that I'm off with my -50% estimate, I'm afraid I'll need more evidence than "We can build the baseline trait you're modifying for 80% or lower of its normal cost," which has no real bearing on the discussion at hand.
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Old 05-27-2015, 02:58 PM   #9
naloth
 
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Default Re: Only Kind of Unkillable

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It does exactly the same thing as Unkillable 1, but has around a 1 in 25,000,000 failure rate. It's a different way of getting to the same place with a lower cost, and one I'd probably* shut down as a GM, as it's just a number-crunching workaround for an existing trait. The only thing it does that my trait does as well is the same thing Unkillable 1 does already.
From memory, I believe that UK1 also has an upgraded version of HPT built in. Taking HTK and more HP (for death thresholds only), doesn't help with shock management or slow down from injury at all.

Also, there's big but subtle benefit in Hard to Kill that you are easily mistaken for dead, so your opponents won't have a reason to finish the job. As an "I'll wait up in a bit surprise if they don't realize I'm not dead" that's an advantage on its own.

Quote:
*Further look at the rules reveals that an unconscious character at -1xHP and lower is in worse shape than I anticipated, as they only get one HT roll to wake up at 12 hours and require assistance to wake up beyond that. As I think that negates a lot of what Unkillable 1 does for a character, I'd treat a character with Unkillable 1 as only being below 0 HP for purposes of waking up, even if he's at -9xHP. If I allowed the trait you're suggesting, I wouldn't extend the same benefit to it.
Understandable.

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For HP 10 and lower, yes. IT:DR (which it was built off of) in general tends to not be a great deal for low HP characters.
Sure, but you'd have to have a base HP greater than 50 given an -80% HP limitation for you to get any discount.

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While I'm willing to accept that I'm off with my -50% estimate, I'm afraid I'll need more evidence than "We can build the baseline trait you're modifying for 80% or lower of its normal cost," which has no real bearing on the discussion at hand.
I was building it based on what you were doing, not what UK1 offers. Perhaps you should enumerate what you see as the benefits for each and the cost?
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Old 05-27-2015, 03:08 PM   #10
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Only Kind of Unkillable

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
From memory, I believe that UK1 also has an upgraded version of HPT built in. Taking HTK and more HP (for death thresholds only), doesn't help with shock management or slow down from injury at all.
Unkillable has no pain tolerance built in.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Also, there's big but subtle benefit in Hard to Kill that you are easily mistaken for dead, so your opponents won't have a reason to finish the job. As an "I'll wait up in a bit surprise if they don't realize I'm not dead" that's an advantage on its own.
I think the "looks dead" bit only applies if you're unconscious and succeed at the roll only due to HtK. I think of that as a Feature, or at best a Perk. Regardless, it has no real bearing on what I'm trying to do here.

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I was building it based on what you were doing, not what UK1 offers. Perhaps you should enumerate what you see as the benefits for each and the cost?
My apologies if I wasn't clear. I want a trait where a character is treated normally with regards to death checks (has to make them at each multiple of -1xHP, automatically dies at -5xHP), but so long as they don't drop to -10xHP they'll recover normally, as though they were alive, and will come back to life at positive HP, much like with Unkillable 2.
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