Dagger-Staff

[hcobb]

Switching this concept to its own thread.

The most brokenly pro-wizard thing in the game is the Dagger-Staff.

Let me count the ways.

1. The silver dagger starts at only $100 so is starting gear
2. The pocket knife weight weapon has all the features of all the historic daggers in the world short of a full Main Gauche
3. Very fine silver daggers only cost $2k and do more damage than a club for ST dumping wizards.
4. For the cost of two spells wizards gain a weapon talent that bundles thrown attack, melee attack, melee defend, two-weapon, armor piercing throw and HTH attack.
5. An elf or goblin can start with Knife, Two Weapon and Staff IV.
6. A hero master fencer has to choose between unhittable and hitting. A master dagger-staff wizard gets to do both, plus has HTH bonuses.
7. Even without a weapon talent or a fine edge a silver dagger still does more damage in HTH than a ST dumped wizard's hands.
8. The pocket knife weight weapon has all the reach of a broadsword so a wizard with Horsemanship can add dagger stab insult to warhorse trampling injury at the same time.
9. An apprentice can start with a half-dozen or so silver daggers and throw these off-hand one every other turn for a single two memory point talent. Adding thrown weapons doubles the rate of no-fatigue fire.
10. At high staff levels the wizard has an undroppable, unbreakable, free attack option tool.
11. Just wearing the hidden dagger (five Conceals, locked to her body with five Lock spells) dagger-staff lets a witch smuggle this wonder weapon anywhere she's not strip searched.
12. And you can add a powerstone or four other enchantments without fear that anybody will use any of this without your permission.

[JimmyPlenty]

just some critiques...

2 Which is why it costs $2000 as opposed to a log on the ground.

7 shouldn't it? I think I could do more damage with a knife than Arnold Schwarzenegger with a fist in his prime.

9 obviously an exception where if the player trying it should be flogged

10 don't they always?

11 well, with 5 conceals and five locks I'd think you could hide a small elephant.

(Who goes around throwing multiple spells like lock anyway? I feel it is a silly concept. Very anti-dramatic. Lock locks and Knock knocks.)

[hcobb]

If you pay two spells for the Knife talent then why not stand behind two fighters and throw silver daggers at the foe? Same effect as throwing a javelin for one fifteenth the weight. Heck carry a sack full of ordinary iron daggers and drop this whenever you feel like casting a spell.

[larsdangly]

That is an impressive list of muchkin-y things a wizard can get out of a 'dagger staff' (assuming your group agrees to the premise, which I think is based on an interpretation of a loosely worded passage in the rules). But it's important to note that it is not a uniquely good approach to creating a character who is good at murdering people ‚ just one of many similarly good approaches. You could spend all day cooking up concepts for heroes and wizards that would compete effectively with this sort of character.

[JimmyPlenty]

Originally Posted by hcobb

If you pay two spells for the Knife talent then why not stand behind two fighters and throw silver daggers at the foe? Same effect as throwing a javelin for one fifteenth the weight. Heck carry a sack full of ordinary iron daggers and drop this whenever you feel like casting a spell.

..and then have to pick them up again to use them. What wizard wouldn't start a combat casting spells? Does that happen often?

[FireHorse]

Originally Posted by JimmyPlenty

What wizard wouldn't start a combat casting spells?

Flambeau the Pyromancer, who starts every combat by tossing lit grenades from cover, because it's much easier to cast spells on people when they're busy rolling around on the ground, deafened and frantically patting out flames.

[hcobb]

Or toss unlit molitails on subjects. Once they are splashed follow up with a fire spell.

[Skarg]

1. The silver dagger starts at only $100 so is starting gear
   
   Good. Wizards should be able to start with daggers without getting a -4 casting penalty. Always have before. Never a problem.
   
   
   
2. The pocket knife weight weapon has all the features of all the historic daggers in the world short of a full Main Gauche
   
   What do you mean "pocket knife weight"? Seems to me they have TFT dagger weight, and so therefore yes do have those abilities. If you have a complaint, explain what you mean directly, please, or no one will know what you mean, so you're wasting everyone's time and energy.
   
   My best guess is you mean historically they should weigh a bit more. Ok great, sure go ahead. GURPS daggers weigh 0.25 to 1.0 lbs - which probably won't affect anything. I can't think of a wizard design I remember where this would make much/any difference.
   
   
   
3. Very fine silver daggers only cost $2k and do more damage than a club for ST dumping wizards.
   
   That seems to me just... pretty appropriate for a $2000 silver very fine dagger, it seems to me. I mean, you could nerf fine daggers on grounds of proportionality (i.e. why can a fine greatsword only do +2 damage if a fine dagger can do +2 damage) if you like, and I'd see your point about realism, but not about how this is going to change game balance much.
   
   
   
4. For the cost of two spells wizards gain a weapon talent that bundles thrown attack, melee attack, melee defend, two-weapon, armor piercing throw and HTH attack.
   
   Except for the part about "armor piercing throw", which I don't know what you mean, yes.
   
   None of my wizards find this particularly compelling. Most would rather have two more spells. Or some other talent.
   
   Those choosing this don't seem to be getting more than they're investing in it.
   
   All of the consequences (except the one I don't know what you mean) seem logical and natural - that's what daggers are.
   
   Since I use the original-TFT Metagaming Q&A answer that all Knife talent does is let you throw daggers and attack outside HTH without a -4 DX, the HTH ability is already free.
   
   
   
5. An elf or goblin can start with Knife, Two Weapon and Staff IV.
   
   Ten IQ points? What an investment of IQ points for a wizard, just to do something weird and likely to lead to your death!
   
   
   
6. A hero master fencer has to choose between unhittable and hitting. A master dagger-staff wizard gets to do both, plus has HTH bonuses.
   
   Yeah that's a really annoying (to me) bonus ability of the new Staff IV spell. Especially combined with the other new staff powers that annoy me (mainly because they come for free for all wizards taking the staff spells that basically every wizard should take for OTHER reasons anyway (i.e. the mana stat). I think the thing to do is to break out those abilities as separate spells, and/or have them be largely unknown, rather than something every wizard should/will want to get.
   
   
   
7. Even without a weapon talent or a fine edge a silver dagger still does more damage in HTH than a ST dumped wizard's hands.
   
   I don't know what you meant to write there, but RAW ST <9 HTH dagger does 1d-1, ST 11 brawling or UC 1 in HTH does 1d.
   
   Seems to me a dagger should do more damage in HTH than almost anyone's hands, no? I'd actually tend to think the HTH dagger damage is lighter than in probably should be, especially with the new IQ 7 brawling talent, and double-especially if people are ruling that gives +2 damage in all serious fighting (not just a bonus on the turn you switch to "dirty" brawling).
   
   Also, if your wizard's strategy is to get into HTH with strong opponents, good luck with that.
   
   
   
8. The pocket knife weight weapon has all the reach of a broadsword so a wizard with Horsemanship can add dagger stab insult to warhorse trampling injury at the same time.
   
   The mounted combat rules say you can attack people in your Front hexes, not under you. Options against figures underfoot are trample, or try to get your horse to enter HTH with them (LOL) which would topple you too. then you can use that great HTH wizard tactic.
   
   Also, though the mounted combat rules do not explicitly say so, I would tend to rule that non-pole-weapons can't attack prone figures from horseback... maybe if you're an Expert Horseman and/or use Acrobatics. I'd say GM discretion can and should include basic geometric facts about the game world situation.
   
   
   
9. An apprentice can start with a half-dozen or so silver daggers and throw these off-hand one every other turn for a single two memory point talent. Adding thrown weapons doubles the rate of no-fatigue fire.
   
   Yes (if your GM thinks figures can do things with their off hand at no penalty; One-Armed Bill lost 4 DX when he lost his arm). And?
   
   Is this a fearsome ability? I don't think so. I usually welcome it when my foes' apprentices spend their time throwing daggers (especially with their left hands).
   
   Spending 2-6 spells' worth of time studying knife tricks also keeps them as your apprentice for another 6-18 months or so, meaning more Aid assistance for their wizard.
   
   Throwing 1d-1 daggers that cost $100 each? I'm really thinking this apprentice's judgement is off.
   
   I'm surprised you didn't mention the idea of throwing the dagger staff... then when someone picks it up they get blasted for 3d damage.
   
   
   
10. At high staff levels the wizard has an undroppable, unbreakable, free attack option tool.
    
    Yeah, that's annoying. As before, I'd break it out into a separate spell if they want to do that, not give it away as a free side-perk of getting a strong mana staff.
    
    
    
11. Just wearing the hidden dagger (five Conceals, locked to her body with five Lock spells) dagger-staff lets a witch smuggle this wonder weapon anywhere she's not strip searched.
    
    That's true. Though if it's locked and hidden on their body, they aren't going to be able to use many of the other abilities you listed.
    
    
    
12. And you can add a powerstone or four other enchantments without fear that anybody will use any of this without your permission.
    
    Yes. That ability has always been there and I tend to like it. It's one way magic item proliferation in a campaign can be somewhat reduced.

[hcobb]

Unready and very able: ITL 148 "The wizard must be holding or wearing the staff for it to be useful."

I.e. the dagger can be hidden on your person and still be used.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Unready and very able: ITL 148 "The wizard must be holding or wearing the staff for it to be useful."

I.e. the dagger can be hidden on your person and still be used.

Only used for magic abilities, so not your suggested abilities 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9.

Or is that another one of your hyper-literal interpretations, where you think that means a sheathed hidden dagger can be used to attack, defend, and make thrown attacks because of that line?