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Old 10-01-2013, 07:31 AM   #81
DouglasCole
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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
BTW, another example that would probably be interesting is an MMA match, i.e. where participants are free to pick a training of striking and/or grappling, and see if the in-game optimisation mimicks the RW one.

Oh, and looking at the different possibilities for people with fewer points spent on training would be interesting too - e.g. self-defence course graduates, beginner martial artists, conscripts with only minimal close combat training etc.
I'm seriously contemplating a series of Gladiator nights, done on Hangouts with (likely) Roll20 if I can get hex support. MapTool if I can't.

I'd probably do something like 60, 100, 150-point divisions, armed and unarmed and open, with rules specified ahead of time.

Despite my status as "guy who wrote the book," I've not GMed in a wicked long age, and playing the rules as an integrated whole is new to even me. So it might have some fits, starts, and "oh, should have done it that way" moments.

But it might be fun.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:32 AM   #82
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BTW, another example that would probably be interesting is an MMA match, i.e. where participants are free to pick a training of striking and/or grappling, and see if the in-game optimisation mimicks the RW one.
That's tough, because what's the real-world optimization for MMA? The answer, realistically, is you want to be better on your feet than the other guy, and better on the ground. Barring that, you want to be much better in one place and able to keep the fight there.

But it's not like all champion MMA fighters come in a single flavor. So "optimization" is a bad thing to chase, IMO. A better example is, as mentioned upthread, how good at grappling do you need to be in order to avoid being grappled? That's likely to be the primary concern of most striking fighters in most games.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:37 AM   #83
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I'd probably do something like 60, 100, 150-point divisions, armed and unarmed and open, with rules specified ahead of time.
I'm all in favour of seeing 100- and 150-pointers, but 60 as the low end seems just too high. Supposedly many people will only realistically have up to 4 points in their style, and yet (I think) TG provides a the fine level of detail to differentiate them. It would be interesting to see how they look in practice.

(Also the nonhumans that I edited to add to the post, though it's another matter entirely.)
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:45 AM   #84
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Awesome! Thanks.

So, trying to interpret the stuff that happens, it would go something like this: Lerr shoots for a single, Doka does a Tawara Gaeshi and ends up on top with Lerr in a weak half guard. Lerr goes to a proper deep half, Doka tries but fails to drop his knee on Lerr's face (I struggle to see how he could do a real kick while basing on the grappled leg). Lerr finishes with a kneebar.
I don't know the japanese for it, but I was picturing Lerr's face pretty close to Doka's shin or ankle, thus within reach of a proper boot to the head (plus: song) with a stomp kick a la Jim Kirk ("I . . . have had . . . enough of YOU!").

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It's mostly pretty understandable. The only place where I felt I had to do much interpretation was the position after the sacrifice throw and with the kick. I like it.
I struggled with that too. I may go back if I can find the right icons and illustrate with figures in MapTool, using screen captures.

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I'm kind of with Cole here, and I don't think it's unrealistic to have a judoka with relatively poor ne waza these days (or BJJ guys with poor takedowns, for that matter).
One quick note: I don't disagree with his comment that a proper practitioner of an actual style should be - or at least CAN be - more well rounded. My thing was more that just like GURPS' "Honesty" isn't the best name in the world, "Judo" and "Karate" do not describe actual stylists of those arts precisely.

The typical BJJ guy has a repertoire of throws (a Gracie himself shows this with Ed Norton in the Hulk movie - a perfect GURPS defensive Judo Throw!) that often don't seem to see a lot of use in the typical MMA forums. There it's nearly pure (GURPS) Wrestling, leveraging a great ground game, a lot of patience, and locks, sweeps, takedowns, and positioning. So with not too much work, you could toss a few points at Russ Lerr, give him some Judo, and call him a BJJ stylist! He also matches pretty well the Submission Wrestling style on p. 205 of Martial Arts.

The other guy in GURPS style terms is probably something like Chin Na (Judo, no ground fighting, but lots of chokes and locks). He could also be an armed stylist (such as Late Medieval Knightly Mounted Combat) who has been caught without his weapons.
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Last edited by DouglasCole; 10-01-2013 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:51 AM   #85
DouglasCole
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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I'm all in favour of seeing 100- and 150-pointers, but 60 as the low end seems just too high. Supposedly many people will only realistically have up to 4 points in their style, and yet (I think) TG provides a the fine level of detail to differentiate them. It would be interesting to see how they look in practice.
Certainly we can go pretty low in point value here, but I'd worry for a Fight Night type activity that this is, frankly, boring as hell. Even TG, with its higher resolution and hopefully MSG enhanced flavoring (mondo super grappling, of course) is going to be "you miss, you miss, you miss, you all-out attack, and miss, you miss, hey, where'd everybody go?" at "bring me a 5-10 point character."

TG is supposed to enhance the fun and flavor of games people want to play, not be a real simulation tool. Note that even with TG, I elected to have control points increment pretty fast, relatively speaking - even the fight i gamed out in the example went what, maybe 8 or 9 seconds? A real match like this should probably last 10x as long (though some don't).

Again: players will revolt and pelt the GM with spare d4s kept on hand especially for this occasion.

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(Also the nonhumans that I edited to add to the post, though it's another matter entirely.)
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:01 PM   #86
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Certainly we can go pretty low in point value here, but I'd worry for a Fight Night type activity that this is, frankly, boring as hell.
I'm considering analyzing "Untrained Man vs. Pyscho House Cat" in light of the new rules...
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:05 PM   #87
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I'm considering analyzing "Untrained Man vs. Pyscho House Cat" in light of the new rules...
Ha. Ha. Ha. :-)
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:48 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I don't know the japanese for it, but I was picturing Lerr's face pretty close to Doka's shin or ankle, thus within reach of a proper boot to the head (plus: song) with a stomp kick a la Jim Kirk ("I . . . have had . . . enough of YOU!").
Hm. I think I would have GMed that differently. I have trouble picturing a situation where somebody is grappling an opponent's leg with all four limbs, and the opponent can use the grappled leg to balance on to free his other leg for kicking. My solution was to think of the position as deep half guard, which requires the grappled person to be low enough to post on his hands, leaving an obvious option to try to knee the head, albeit awkwardly.

(http://www.grapplearts.com/Blog/wp-c...-butterfly.jpg)

Note that this is a transitory position - most often mid sweep - and not someplace to hang out. It doesn't really allow a kick of any kind, however, and it requires Doka to have had a forced posture change, so I'm not fully comfortable with this explanation. Alternatively Lerr could wrap Doka's leg up with his head by the foot and his own legs extended upwards, but then we return to the balance problem again.

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One quick note: I don't disagree with his comment that a proper practitioner of an actual style should be - or at least CAN be - more well rounded. My thing was more that just like GURPS' "Honesty" isn't the best name in the world, "Judo" and "Karate" do not describe actual stylists of those arts precisely.
Yeah, I got that. I just wanted to point out that don't think a Judo guy having ground skills that don't match their throwing skills is all that unlikely these days. I think the parry abilities of the Judo skill is more out of synch with the baseline of the art than the lack of ground specialization.

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The typical BJJ guy has a repertoire of throws (a Gracie himself shows this with Ed Norton in the Hulk movie - a perfect GURPS defensive Judo Throw!) that often don't seem to see a lot of use in the typical MMA forums.
I kind of disagree a little here. BJJ practitioners' takedown skills are very hapzard. Some academies put a lot of emphasis on it, but many don't, and individual practitioners can either pick up whatever takedowns suits their style the most, or ignore the subject almost completely. With current competition rules, it's possible to get to the top levels of the sport with a very poor takedown game, and those who want to polish it for some reason often goes outside of the art to learn it. Rickson Gracie from the Hulk, for example, cross trained Judo, Wrestling and Sambo.

Sidenote: Creating a ground specialist with poor takedowns is actually a little difficult (for me, at least) within the rules. It's not really a big problem, since doing so is basically shooting yourself in the foot during character creation, but people like this exist in significant quantities.

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There it's nearly pure (GURPS) Wrestling, leveraging a great ground game, a lot of patience, and locks, sweeps, takedowns, and positioning. So with not too much work, you could toss a few points at Russ Lerr, give him some Judo, and call him a BJJ stylist! He also matches pretty well the Submission Wrestling style on p. 205 of Martial Arts.
Yeah, I thought of him as a SW/Catch guy. He even finishes with a kneebar!

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The other guy in GURPS style terms is probably something like Chin Na (Judo, no ground fighting, but lots of chokes and locks). He could also be an armed stylist (such as Late Medieval Knightly Mounted Combat) who has been caught without his weapons.
That's an interesting interpretation which would never have entered my mind. My lenses are obviously too narrow when it comes to grappling.
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Old 10-01-2013, 05:28 PM   #89
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Quickly: knee bar and four-limb grapple, I was picturing more like this:

http://www.grapplearts.com.php5-22.d...eglock-Bod.jpg

with the guy on the left able (at a significant penalty) to stomp-kick to the head by rolling to the right. Entirely plausible? Maybe not, and allowing a "hands-free parry" either at full skill or at a penalty vs. strikes would represent applying pressure or movement to foil the strike.

I'd also allow the spending of control points to aid a Parry attempt, also representing moving to foil the strike.

In a way, I think it's cool that we can have this level of conversation. We're way past "you're grappled, I strike you at -4 DX" in terms of narrative power, which for me is "mission accomplished."

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Yeah, I got that. I just wanted to point out that don't think a Judo guy having ground skills that don't match their throwing skills is all that unlikely these days. I think the parry abilities of the Judo skill is more out of synch with the baseline of the art than the lack of ground specialization.
Fair point


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Sidenote: Creating a ground specialist with poor takedowns is actually a little difficult (for me, at least) within the rules. It's not really a big problem, since doing so is basically shooting yourself in the foot during character creation, but people like this exist in significant quantities.
Slap on Technique Mastery to Ground Fighting, which might allow you to buy your ground game up to Combat Skill+4. So you could buy (for example) Wrestling at DX, but buy Ground Fighting up past "no penalties" and into "active bonus."

Another way to go might be to buy an anti-technique, buying DOWN Force Posture Change, which might be a better way to go. So if you are four points worse at FPC/Takedowns than your Wrestling Skill, that's an anti-technique worth -4 points. If you have Wrestling-14 and Ground Fighting-14 [5] and Force Posture Change-10 [-4] that's descriptive enough.

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Yeah, I thought of him as a SW/Catch guy. He even finishes with a kneebar!
I hate that technique, though I've pulled off a few in our Hwa Rang Do grappling.

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That's an interesting interpretation which would never have entered my mind. My lenses are obviously too narrow when it comes to grappling.
I cheated. I went through the electronic copy of Martial Arts looking for styles with Judo but not Ground Fighting. :-)
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Old 10-01-2013, 05:48 PM   #90
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Another way to go might be to buy an anti-technique, buying DOWN Force Posture Change, which might be a better way to go. So if you are four points worse at FPC/Takedowns than your Wrestling Skill, that's an anti-technique worth -4 points. If you have Wrestling-14 and Ground Fighting-14 [5] and Force Posture Change-10 [-4] that's descriptive enough.
Anti-techniques in general would be insane cheese at that pricing.
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