Changes to Combat Reflexes [Basic]

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Well, now it's gone the other way. That's overpriced to the point that I don't think it would ever be worth it. That's the least useful part of CR.

It's what the advantage is actually for. CR in 2e was 10 points and had all the benefits except +1 to active defenses, I'm not sure why it changed in 3e.

[arnej]

My GM broke it into three separate levels.

Combat Awareness [5] - You never “freeze” in a surprise situation, and get +6 on all IQ rolls to wake up, or to recover from surprise or mental “stun.” You get +2 to all Fright Checks.

Combat Quickness [5] - You get +1 on initiative rolls. You get +1 to all Fast Draw skills. (leveled part of Combat Reflexes)

Combat Reflexes [5] - Combined with Combat Awareness and Combat Quickness to make the full Combat Reflexes bonus. Gives +1 to all active defenses.

As many players griped at suffering under the "Surprise" rules, the first level was very popular. Combat-types went quickly to level three if they could (or just started with it)

[Black Leviathan]

We view Combat reflexes as a form of PTSD, constantly expecting danger, always in fight-or-flight. Most of our templates pair it with Light sleeper or nightmares because there's a logical toll there. Even in Dungeon Fantasy it's not a very popular advantage at our table. I could certainly see an adventure where most of the characters are constantly keyed up and expecting danger but I wouldn't want to force a player into that role if they didn't want to roleplay it.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

We view Combat reflexes as a form of PTSD, constantly expecting danger, always in fight-or-flight. Most of our templates pair it with Light sleeper or nightmares because there's a logical toll there. Even in Dungeon Fantasy it's not a very popular advantage at our table. I could certainly see an adventure where most of the characters are constantly keyed up and expecting danger but I wouldn't want to force a player into that role if they didn't want to roleplay it.

I don't think that's a wrong way to approach it, but it's definitely not implied by RAW.

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

I don't think that's a wrong way to approach it, but it's definitely not implied by RAW.

CR really represents no hesitation, which is something taught by virtue ethics (you decide ahead of time what the proper action would be in any situation and adapt as needed). PTSD is a disadvantageous reaction, not an advantageous one, even in combat (soldiers with PTSD make really bad mistakes and can end up killing civilians and/or fellow soldiers quite easily).

I would have PTSD being a -15 CP disadvantage with a self-control number triggered by anger, fear, suprise, etc. When you fail, you see everyone around you as an enemy for 4d minutes and react according to your capabilities and situation (running away or begging and pleading if you are defenseless or attacking without hesitation if you have a weapon). At the end of the PTSD episode, make a Fright Check, at a -1 for 15-, -2 for 12-, -3 for 9-, or -4 for 6-, and suffer the normal consequences.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

CR really represents no hesitation

CR really represents no ability actually possessed by humans. The actual ability people have is that they train for particular situations. 'Freezing' in combat is caused by confusion, and if you can match the situation you're in to something you've trained for, you aren't confused so you don't freeze.

The drawback is that the situations you train for either have to be quite generic (in which case your trained response is likely to trigger in situations that are inappropriate but close enough to match the generic) or have gaps (in which case you'll still be confused if it's an unfamiliar situation). This can be somewhat hybridized by having a generic action that's safe (e.g. taking cover instead of returning fire), as diving for cover in response to a backfire may be embarrassing but is unlikely to actually hurt anyone.

[Polkageist]

On the point of it being a baseline, I think that's more appropriate choice to make on a game-by-game basis. I've certainly started games with a list of 'have these ads/disads' that represent the minimum value, as it were, of the PCs. Skills too. It's a good way to have a baseline that you can build your challenges off of without having to worry about a weird hole in abilities. Point-wise, I treat it as either a template without choices or as unlisted points. Either way, the unspent points are the player's to use.

Clearly not quite as applicable for dungeon fantasy, which already has a really tight character template. I've seen that combat reflexes in DF isn't always chosen not because it's not good, but because it's competing with other good and important advantages you might want your muscle wizard to have. Everyone's already built to be fight-capable, so the difference between a knight w/CR and a knight w/o CR isn't as wild as a game with a fight-man w/CR and a librarian.

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by Anthony

CR really represents no ability actually possessed by humans. The actual ability people have is that they train for particular situations. 'Freezing' in combat is caused by confusion, and if you can match the situation you're in to something you've trained for, you aren't confused so you don't freeze.

The drawback is that the situations you train for either have to be quite generic (in which case your trained response is likely to trigger in situations that are inappropriate but close enough to match the generic) or have gaps (in which case you'll still be confused if it's an unfamiliar situation). This can be somewhat hybridized by having a generic action that's safe (e.g. taking cover instead of returning fire), as diving for cover in response to a backfire may be embarrassing but is unlikely to actually hurt anyone.

What is your basis for that position? I have known plenty of people with what I would qualify as Combat Reflexes.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

What is your basis for that position? I have known plenty of people with what I would qualify as Combat Reflexes.

Combat reflexes is a generic extreme resistance to surprise, without bothering to care what the surprise is or what the rational response to the surprising event is. The human brain doesn't work that way.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

In my experience, the vast majority of PCs either start with Combat Reflexes or acquired Combat Reflexes after character creation, so it could be considered a defining feature of playing a PC in GURPS. The change that I am proposing would make Combat Reflexes the default for GURPS characters rather than the exception, reducing its effective cost to '0'. Thus, Enhanced Time Sense would end up costing 30 CP, lacking Combat Reflexes would be represented by a -15 CP disadvantage that I call Bystander, and Combat Paralysis would be worth -30 CP. What do you think?

I don't see the what would be gained by that.