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Old 10-29-2019, 01:47 PM   #41
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
If I take a certain number of hits to my arm, my arm stops working. If my corpse takes the same number of hits to its other arm... well, the arm doesn't stop working, because it wasn't working anyway.
In which case what are the hit points supposed to be measuring in the first place? Why not just say 'to convert the corpse to hamburger, reduce it to -HPx10'.
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Old 10-29-2019, 01:53 PM   #42
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Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Likewise if you provide machines such as cars twice as much ST/HP, machines will be harder to knock back than those pesky living creatures for the same weight.
Buy the extra HP with Massless +0%
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Old 10-29-2019, 01:56 PM   #43
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Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
There's dying and there's destroyed.
Yes, and apparently you missed that I said "destroyed". I'll repeat it it:

Both living and undead are destroyed at -10xHP, so why is once living and reanimated flesh so much harder to destroy?

What about becoming an undead makes someone so much harder to destroy (-10xHP) than when they were alive?


Note; I'm not haranguing the actual rules about IT(Unliving) as presented in Basic, but the nonsensical "double HP" as presented in Template Toolkit 2 - Races, and several people's (you just happened to be who I quoted, I contemplated tagging ericthered as he brought it up first) presentation of "the Unliving are twice as hard to destroy".*

IT(Unliving) is fine. Reduce imp and cut to cr and call it a day... now if the chart is meant to be ignored for "corpse" style Unliving, great... it doesn't say that, but okay. I mean if I want to gripe about TT2R I'd actually start with why do Rotting Corpses still have vitals? But that's another thread...



* Which opens up a whole nother can of worms... of why does impaling damage destroy a living body faster than an Unliving one? This one has always nagged at me, I just never cared to dive into the rabbit hole after it.
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Old 10-29-2019, 02:01 PM   #44
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Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

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Originally Posted by NineDaysDead View Post
Buy the extra HP with Massless +0%
In your eyes, what makes that better mechanically then using IT:DR/2 where appropriate?
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Old 10-29-2019, 02:41 PM   #45
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Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post

* Which opens up a whole nother can of worms... of why does impaling damage destroy a living body faster than an Unliving one? This one has always nagged at me, I just never cared to dive into the rabbit hole after it.
Probably because adding "treat dead living things as a live Unliving thing and dead Unliving things as living homogenous things (except that they are not alive)" would open up cans of worms (if I get hit with an impaling attack that kills me, is the excess damage impacted by wounding modifier?) and because the resolution is partially unnecessary.
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Old 10-29-2019, 02:58 PM   #46
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Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Yes, and apparently you missed that I said "destroyed". I'll repeat it it:

Both living and undead are destroyed at -10xHP, so why is once living and reanimated flesh so much harder to destroy?

What about becoming an undead makes someone so much harder to destroy (-10xHP) than when they were alive?


Note; I'm not haranguing the actual rules about IT(Unliving) as presented in Basic, but the nonsensical "double HP" as presented in Template Toolkit 2 - Races, and several people's (you just happened to be who I quoted, I contemplated tagging ericthered as he brought it up first) presentation of "the Unliving are twice as hard to destroy".*

IT(Unliving) is fine. Reduce imp and cut to cr and call it a day... now if the chart is meant to be ignored for "corpse" style Unliving, great... it doesn't say that, but okay. I mean if I want to gripe about TT2R I'd actually start with why do Rotting Corpses still have vitals? But that's another thread...
You're only destroyed if that would make sense based on the injury and damage types:

Quote:
-10×HP – Total bodily destruction, if this makes sense given the source of the damage – 200 points of arrow wounds leave a messy but recognizable corpse; 200 points of fire injury leaves nothing but an unrecognizable lump of charcoal. The difference can be important in settings where resurrection, reanimation, etc. are possible!


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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
* Which opens up a whole nother can of worms... of why does impaling damage destroy a living body faster than an Unliving one? This one has always nagged at me, I just never cared to dive into the rabbit hole after it.
PI and IMP get high wound multiples because living beings really don't like getting stabbed and bleeding out, but they don't actually tend to do that much structural damage. For the purposes of calculating bodily destruction, only the damage that would have occurred to something with IT: Unliving and No Blood should count.
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:02 PM   #47
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Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Yes, and apparently you missed that I said "destroyed". I'll repeat it it:
Both living and undead are destroyed at -10xHP, so why is once living and reanimated flesh so much harder to destroy?
I personally don't take that one as a particularly 'hard' rule- it is a guideline at best.

If Bob (HP 10) gets hit with a 2d pistol (rolls 10 dam) on a 3x damage crit (so 30 dam) on the skull hit location (so 120 dam) he's past the destroyed threshold, but you don't need to rule that he got shot in the head with a pistol and exploded into hamburger.

I mean, you can if you want, but it would be silliness.
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Old 10-29-2019, 05:26 PM   #48
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Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
In your eyes, what makes that better mechanically then using IT:DR/2 where appropriate?

1. light wounds:


20HP with Massless +0% on the last 10 [20]

Vs

10HP + IT:DR/2 [50]

When both get hit for 1HP, 20HP loses 5% of total HP, but IT:DR/2 loses 10% of total HP. Effectively IT:DR/2 minimum injury is 2HP, meaning it's more susceptible to minor scratches etc.

You can change this with IT:DR/2 (Cosmic Rounds down to 0, +50%) [75]



2. Cost:

20HP with Massless +0% on the last 10 [20]

Vs

10HP + IT:DR/2 [50]

The extra HP are often (But not always) cheaper, and are always consistent with the cost of HP.

20 points can buy +10HP
50 points can buy +25HP or IT:DR/2
75 points can buy +37HP or IT:DR/2 (Cosmic Rounds down to 0, +50%)
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Old 10-29-2019, 06:08 PM   #49
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Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NineDaysDead View Post

1. light wounds:
Understood, system resolution is such that any injury is at least 1 HP. You experience the same problem if you allow a mosquito to do 1 HP damage to a person.

Quote:
2. Cost:
20 points can buy +10HP
50 points can buy +25HP or IT:DR/2
75 points can buy +37HP or IT:DR/2 (Cosmic Rounds down to 0, +50%)
That isn't a mechanics issue. It's the same issue you generally face you're using IT:DR to represent "half damage from fire attacks"

Other things not covered:
- "Massless HP" affects healing, since regeneration scales with more HP but not every ability scales. This introduces a bit of ambiguity -> regeneration scales, but does the Healing advantage or Healing college?

- HP also determines crippling and dismemberment.

- HP generally affects weight so you'll have to decide how much is massless. If you build a human sized and shaped robot, should it have x2 HP and human weight*? Should an elemental the size of a person weigh what a person does but have x4 the normal HP plus homogeneous? Should vehicles only use half their ST/HP for slams/collisions?

- For inanimate objects you use ST = HP as determined by weight in the back of Campaigns. Massless affects how the HP is handled for slams. Would it also affect Knockback? After all, you normally base that off ST, not HP.

I suspect it's better to use HP based off weight and Injury Tolerance to handle structural differences.

*Note that tough things get more HP for weight normally. Making some of this "massless" effectively give them less HP to base weight on. HP 10 is 125 lbs of living critter, but only 16 lbs of machine, and 2 lbs of solid iron.

Last edited by naloth; 10-29-2019 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 10-29-2019, 06:25 PM   #50
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Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Understood, system resolution is such that any injury is at least 1 HP. You experience the same problem if you allow a mosquito to do 1 HP damage to a person.
You don't experience the same problem I showed if you use HP instead of IT:DR.


Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
That isn't a mechanics issue. It's the same issue you generally face you're using IT:DR to represent "half damage from fire attacks"
Yes, IT:DR is problematic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Other things not covered:
- "Massless HP" affects healing, since regeneration scales with more HP but not every ability scales. This introduces a bit of ambiguity -> regeneration scales, but does the Healing advantage or Healing college?
Yes, the Healing advantage and Healing college both scale with increased HP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
- HP also determines crippling and dismemberment.
yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
- HP generally affects weight so you'll have to decide how much is massless. If you build a human sized and shaped robot, should it have x2 HP and human weight?
It should have whatever weight a robot should have and HP based on 4 X (cube root of weight lbs.) rounded up

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Should an elemental the size of a person weigh what a person does but have x4 the normal HP plus homogeneous?
It should have whatever weight an elemental should have and HP based on 8 X (cube root of weight lbs.) rounded up. Assuming a Homogenous or Diffuse elemental.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Should vehicles only use half their ST/HP for slams/collisions?
When using HP, use half HP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
- For inanimate objects you use ST = HP as determined by weight in the back of Campaigns.
ST = HP????? For Objects??? Can I get a source for that? On page 558 under Object Hit Points Table it says:

Quote:
Optionally, calculate HP as 4 X (cube root of empty weight in lbs.) for Unliving objects and 8 X (cube root of empty weight in lbs.) for Homogenous or Diffuse ones. Round up in both cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Massless affects how the HP is handled for slams.
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Would it also affect Knockback? After all, you normally base that off ST, not HP.
"If the target has no ST score at all (like a wall), or is not resisting, use its HP instead" Basic page 378, so yes massless would effect knockback.
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