Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-28-2019, 12:41 PM   #1
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

One of the issues with Injury Tolerance is that Unliving objects as supposed to have twice the HP of living objects while Homogeneous/Diffuse objects are supposed to have four times the HP of living objects. This means that a corpse would have twice the HP of the person that they were beforehand, while a sack of ground meat made from the same person would have four times the HP, which is paradoxical. In order to address that paradox, I would suggest the following changes to the rules concerning Injury Tolerance.

In addition to its normal effects, Unliving should halve final damage, rounded down (minimum 1 HP), and should be 60 CP rather than 20 CP, rather than doubling HP. In addition to its normal effects, Homogenous should quarter final damage, rounded down (minimum 1 HP), and should be 120 CP rather than 40 CP, rather than quadrupling HP. In addition to its normal effects, Diffuse should quarter area effect damage (minimum 1 HP), and should be 150 CP rather than 100 CP, rather than quadrupling HP.

What do you think? Is it a workable solution? Or is it something that people take too seriously?
AlexanderHowl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2019, 01:28 PM   #2
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

Generally I agree. You will get into a slight rounding issue, though, where weak attacks of 1 HP effectively do more damage under this system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
In addition to its normal effects, Unliving should halve final damage, rounded down (minimum 1 HP), and should be 60 CP rather than 20 CP, rather than doubling HP.
I'd go with 50 instead. It's still a a premium most of the time over +10 HP and having HP is better than having 1/2 damage.

Quote:
In addition to its normal effects, Homogenous should quarter final damage, rounded down (minimum 1 HP), and should be 120 CP rather than 40 CP, rather than quadrupling HP.
I'd go with 100 instead. IT:DR/2 to IT:DR/4 is only 50 points and even then it's often cheaper to buy HP instead.

Quote:
In addition to its normal effects, Diffuse should quarter area effect damage (minimum 1 HP), and should be 150 CP rather than 100 CP, rather than quadrupling HP.
I don't think I would touch Diffuse.
naloth is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2019, 01:33 PM   #3
Sorenant
 
Sorenant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

The HP multiplication is more like a guideline, rather than rule.
The living is relatively easy to kill/destroy because it has vital organs and can bleed out, among other things. The unliving/machine is harder to kill/destroy because they aren't as fragile as the living. The homogenous characters are even more so, because poking a hole through an animated stone golem doesn't significantly damage it.
However that's one part of the equation. A robot might actually have less HP than a human because their components are sensitive and fragile, without redundancies and so on. A golem is a supernaturally animated and the amount of damage it can sustain before the magic breaks might be way below that of the damage needed to destroy its physical body.
It's also has been suggested before that using IT(DR) instead of extra HP is a valid alternative, though there are break points.
Sorenant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2019, 01:36 PM   #4
ericthered
Hero of Democracy
 
ericthered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant View Post
The living is relatively easy to kill/destroy because it has vital organs and can bleed out, among other things. The unliving/machine is harder to kill/destroy because they aren't as fragile as the living. The homogenous characters are even more so, because poking a hole through an animated stone golem doesn't significantly damage it.
This is the most important thing. The damage that will destroy a person isn't going destroy them as a corpse, and the damage to shut down a car engine isn't going to remove it as an obstacle or let you twist off easy to carry parts. So yes, if you hack sir greg to death, his corpse is likely still in one piece and a necromancer could happily animate it with most of the HP intact.
__________________
Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog

Now recruiting in PbP forum!
ericthered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2019, 01:47 PM   #5
Gnome
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Unliving objects as supposed to have twice the HP of living objects
Can you provide a citation for this? I've never known about such a rule, and it doesn't seem sensible to me. HP is so abstract and can depend on so many idiosyncratic details, like internal body structure and mechanics, I just don't see how the HP of a living and unliving thing (presumably you're comparing a man to the zombie formed from his corpse?) can be easily compared this way. GURPS Magic does give zombies a HP bonus as I recall, so in that sense there is a rule in existence for this particular comparison. I assume GURPS Zombies gives more options for the type of zombie we're dealing with (I don't have that book). It many depend of course on what it is that "animates" the zombie in the first place, and what it takes to disrupt that animating force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
while Homogeneous/Diffuse objects are supposed to have four times the HP of living objects.
Ok, here you're on more solid ground, as for objects of the same weight, Homogenous will have twice the HP of Unliving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
This means that a corpse would have twice the HP of the person that they were beforehand, while a sack of ground meat made from the same person would have four times the HP, which is paradoxical.
I don't see a paradox. "Destroying" the person involves making him dead, which just means disrupting any of his many vital functions. "Destroying" the corpse depends on the nature of the supernatural force animating it. "Destroying" a sack of meat might involve scattering its bits to the four winds, although I can't say I'm certain anymore what it is we're discussing. A flesh golem, perhaps? Maybe I'll retreat again to the idea that it depends on what is making it "alive" in the first place. In all of these cases, the assignment of HP to the creature is somewhat arbitrary, which is to say it depends on how the GM envisions that particular monster working.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
In addition to its normal effects, Unliving should halve final damage, rounded down (minimum 1 HP), and should be 60 CP rather than 20 CP, rather than doubling HP. In addition to its normal effects, Homogenous should quarter final damage, rounded down (minimum 1 HP), and should be 120 CP rather than 40 CP, rather than quadrupling HP. In addition to its normal effects, Diffuse should quarter area effect damage (minimum 1 HP), and should be 150 CP rather than 100 CP, rather than quadrupling HP.
Dividing damage is already built into another advantage: IT:Damage Reduction. I see no point in bundling various forms of IT. Unliving and Homogenous make you resistant to imp/pi damage, presumably because those are more damaging if there's some internal structure to disrupt--living things have lots of vital internal functions, Unliving have fewer, and Homogenous fewer still.

EDIT: Ninjaed by a few posters above...

Last edited by Gnome; 10-28-2019 at 01:50 PM. Reason: Ninjaed!
Gnome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2019, 02:39 PM   #6
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
Can you provide a citation for this? I've never known about such a rule, and it doesn't seem sensible to me.

Ok, here you're on more solid ground, as for objects of the same weight, Homogenous will have twice the HP of Unliving.
It's a bit of an extrapolation from the Build Table (p. B18) and Object Hit Points, p. B558, where if someone of average ST 10 and mass (115-175 lbs) follows the same base progression of N x cube root of weight, then HP are roughly 1.78 to 2.06 times the cube root of weight for living creatures.
__________________
Gaming Ballistic, LLC
DouglasCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2019, 02:40 PM   #7
Refplace
 
Refplace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Yukon, OK
Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

I dont see a problem here either. As several others have already said living things are more fragile than bulk material.
Consider that you need to do 2*HP in damage to possibly kill someone, but get them to negative 5*HT o insure death, and negative 10*HT to obliterate them.
Machines are considered nonfunctional at 0 HP (effectively negative HP*1)
__________________
Looking for group in my area
My GURPS official contributions Buying them lets us know you want more!
My GURPS fan contribution and blog:
REFPLace GURPS Landing Page
My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items)
My GURPS Wiki entries
Refplace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2019, 03:28 PM   #8
Varyon
On Notice
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
I dont see a problem here either. As several others have already said living things are more fragile than bulk material.
Consider that you need to do 2*HP in damage to possibly kill someone, but get them to negative 5*HT o insure death, and negative 10*HT to obliterate them.
Machines are considered nonfunctional at 0 HP (effectively negative HP*1)
A few issues arise. First off, HP is used for collisions and the like, so a 150 lb sack of meat (Homogenous, HP ~40) does 4x as much damage as a 150 lb person (Living, HP ~10) when dropped from, say, 10 yards up. Oh, and you need to deal 4x as much burning damage to the sack of meat to turn it to ash as you do the person (although functionally adding IT:DR to Unliving/Homogenous/Diffuse doesn't fix this). Artifacts, meanwhile, aren't considered nonfunctional at 0 HP, they instead must roll against HT each second they are used to avoid being rendered nonfunctional, just like a character. The difference is that artifacts won't recover from this "unconsciousness" on their own and thus require repairs (an Unliving/Homogenous character, however, can recover just like a person).

That said, I don't think Unliving/Homogenous/Diffuse should have IT:DR bundled into them - a zombie can easily be just as vulnerable to crushing, cutting, and burning as the living person it was made from. However, neither should they have more powerful Slams and the like. Any additional resilience compared to their base should be purchased separately as IT:DR or HP (Massless +0%). Reduced resilience is likely in the form of Vulnerability.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2019, 04:40 PM   #9
Anders
 
Anders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant View Post
The HP multiplication is more like a guideline, rather than rule.
The living is relatively easy to kill/destroy because it has vital organs and can bleed out, among other things. The unliving/machine is harder to kill/destroy because they aren't as fragile as the living. The homogenous characters are even more so, because poking a hole through an animated stone golem doesn't significantly damage it.
And for some reason, the living slam and fall less hard than the others...
__________________
“He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion... Nor is it enough that he should hear the opinions of adversaries from his own teachers, presented as they state them, and accompanied by what they offer as refutations. He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them...he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.”
Anders is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2019, 04:53 PM   #10
Sorenant
 
Sorenant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Default Re: Fixing Injury Tolerance [Basic/Powers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders View Post
And for some reason, the living slam and fall less hard than the others...
Quote:
Originally Posted by B430
Mass only matters indirectly: massive objects usually have high HP, but it would hurt more to collide with a locomotive than with a pillow of the same mass! HP take into account both mass and structural strength.
Alternatively you could consider the extra HP of unliving or homogeneous objects relative to a living as massless and not interfere with slams. Example: Slamming into a 150 lbs zombie is not going to hurt more than a 150 lbs human, so any extra HP the zombie has as consequence of his IT(Unliving) is bought as massless.
Another yet option is to also buy IT(DR) with unliving or homogeneous instead of extra HP.
Sorenant is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.