The Problem With Magic

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Hm, I wonder how that would be modelled in game? Would it be a Social Stigma? Or would they suffer a reaction penalty equal to their Magical Resistance?

Huh? People who can't get work would, presumably, be modeled similarly to how they would be in any other setting. Unless people can directly perceive your Magic Resistance there's no way it could serve as a reaction penalty.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Hm, I wonder how that would be modelled in game? Would it be a Social Stigma? Or would they suffer a reaction penalty equal to their Magical Resistance?

Can't get legitimate employment or decent medical care. But peculiarly well suited for crime due to spells to detect and interrogate them tending to misfire. Sounds like a Social Stigma to me.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

He could if he was also a 20th level fighter. Gandalf did a lot of hitting things with a sword.

Which suggests that Gandalf doesn't fit D&D, maybe we should try GURPS.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Which suggests that Gandalf doesn't fit D&D, maybe we should try GURPS.

Bear in mind that he wasn't really a human but some kind of "celestial" in D&D terms.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Bear in mind that he wasn't really a human but some kind of "celestial" in D&D terms.

He probably had personalized monster stats.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

The biggest obstacle to bringing Henry Ford a few TL early by way of magic is probably the critical failure table...

If you mean the assembly line that existed in a proto form as early as 1104 (TL3) in the Western world as the Venetian Arsenal. China had something similar centuries before that.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

And those elements seem to have mainly come from Vance, Howard, and a little bit of Tolkien.

The cribbing from Vance was because they wanted a totally fictional magic system rather then anything remotely to how magic was thought to work. Not that stopped the likes of Chick and Pulling from claiming you could really cast D&D spells. (I wish I was joking)

Howard and Tolkien were High fantasy where magic was rare even with the rich and powerful. D&D was decidedly low fantasy even in its early days.

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Metalwork rare in a village was often found in a castle. Swords represented a big investment, the poor fought with clubs and farm implements. It makes sense that potions would be found among the wealthy and powerful. If we had magic potions that really worked in our world, the rich would have most of them and the governments of the world would control and/or outlaw many types of potion.

Actually per List of prices of medieval items, which uses "Standards of Living in the Later Middle Ages, Christopher Dyer, Cambridge University Press, 1989" as a reference shows swords weren't that expensive.

Cheap sword (peasent's) 6d (pence); 2 days of work for a Thatcher.

Originally Posted by Astromancer

No fifth level magic-user could go face to face with a Balrog.

"If you ask how he lasted so long battling a Balrog, I reply that that is a fault with the D&D combat
system, so the point that a 5th level mage could not withstand the blows of the 10th level Balrog does not quite hold water. (I am referring only to the Balrog in D&D, not including the Eldritch Wizardry characteristics, as this type of Balrog is usually said to be too weak for a true Tolkien Balrog. In fact, when placed in perspective with Gandalf’s battle with one, the Balrog described by Gygax and Arneson originally was of normal strength. As far as I am concerned, the type VI demon is a type VI demon, not a Balrog.)"

Even if we throw that argument by the author out there is the issue that Gandalf is not human but an Ainur (the Middle Earth equivalent of an angel IIUC) So even if you say the Balrog he faced was the Balor in D&D (renamed type VI demon later on) it would have no bearing on his level as a magic-user.

In fact, D&D was filled with that kind of wonkyness. Per the AD&D1 DMG the economy was, to put it bluntly broken, beyond belief. The less you payed attention to that part the better your world was.

[AlexanderHowl]

Vancian magic was actually supposed to be 'secrets of the universe' type stuff, cosmic forces that were so potent that human beings were only capable of holding a few of them at a time. I would actually model each 'spell' as a minimum of a 100 CP ability that could only be stored within Modular Abilities. A Vancian sorcerer would likely have a minimum of one of Modular Ability 100 (Super-Memorization; Preparation Required, 1 hour, -50%; Takes Recharge, 5 hours, -30%) [61] with Modular Ability 100 (Super-Memorization; Costs FP, -10 FP; Preparation Required, 1 hour, -50%; Takes Recharge, 5 hours, -30%) [13] as an alternate ability, for a total of 74 points. More powerful Vancian sorcerers would have more powerful Modular Abilities, less limited Modular Abilities, or more Modular Abilities.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by maximara

The cribbing from Vance was because they wanted a totally fictional magic system rather then anything remotely to how magic was thought to work.

No, the cribbing from Vance was because it was the easiest system to play. No fiddling with magic points, easy to manage the progression of magic-users.

Howard and Tolkien were High fantasy where magic was rare even with the rich and powerful. D&D was decidedly low fantasy even in its early days.

Magic is ubiquitous in Tolkien but not easily definable. Practically everything is magical in some way.

As for Howard, that depends on your definition of low fantasy. The Wikipedia article explicitly calls out Howard as being high or low depending on your definition.

Per the AD&D1 DMG the economy was, to put it bluntly broken, beyond belief. The less you payed attention to that part the better your world was.

And the DMG points this out for you, so that you don't think it's actually "broken," but that this is a design choice. It works for what it needs to do.

It is simply more heroic for players to have their characters swaggering around with pouches full of gems and tossing out gold pieces than it is for them to have coppers. Heroic fantasy is made of fortunes and king’s ransoms in loot gained most cleverly and bravely and lost in a twinkling by various means — thievery, gambling, debauchery, gift-giving, bribes, and so forth. The “reality” AD&D seeks to create through role playing is that of the mythical heroes such as Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Kothar, Elric, and their ilk. When treasure is spoken of, it is more stirring when participants know it to be TREASURE!

Just as with magic in GURPS, the author here is saying: Yep, there's an economy, and your adventuring has an effect on it. But don't worry too much about that, because you don't have to focus on it. Just play up the literary and legendary tropes.

And, as with magic in GURPS, the DMG goes on to say you should adjust it if you want, but beware of the ramifications.

You may, of course, adjust any prices and costs as you see fit for your own milieu. Be careful to observe the effects of such changes on both play balance and player involvement. If any adverse effects are noted, it is better to return to the tried and true. It is fantastic and of heroic proportions so as to match its game vehicle.

[Andrew Hackard]

Mod notice: If you want to keep discussing non-GURPS magic systems, please do so in the general roleplaying forum. Thanks.