Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-23-2014, 07:51 AM   #21
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]

To allow for skill-based (rather than attribute-based) generalists*, I have two traits available - Training (DX) and Training (IQ). Each is [15]/level and gives +1 to all skills that are typically based on that attribute (IQ includes Will and Per). It does not apply to straight rolls against the attribute, skills that are floating to that attribute, or to skills that are defaulting from the attribute, or that are covered by a Dabbler Perk. It does, however, count when its covered skills float to another attribute, and counts as skill level for purposes like TST and the like. For example, a character with Broadsword at DX+1 and Training (DX) 3 and Training (IQ) 5 would be at DX+4 for Broadsword use (thus getting +2 TST). If he needs to float Broadsword over to IQ or Per, Training (DX) still applies but Training (IQ) doesn't (and if he needed to float Soldier over to DX, Training (DX) wouldn't apply but Training (IQ) would). If he doesn't have at least [1] in Stealth, however, Training (DX) doesn't give any bonus to that.

This changes the equation a bit, making high skill perhaps a bit better than high attribute, provided you want a generalist. It works out to [45] for +3 to all known DX-based skills and +1 to TST for the use of those skills, while normally it would cost [50] to get +3 to all DX-based rolls and +1 to general Striking ST (assuming you buy down Basic Speed). Personally, I don't see a 10% reduction in price as being too unbalanced (although this analysis shows me I should probably drop the idea of "free" skill-based Vitality Points, as otherwise I'm probably emphasizing skill a bit too much).

*"Generalist" in this case meaning "5 or more skills with that controlling attribute at the [4]/level range."
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2014, 12:05 AM   #22
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
It's still cheaper to buy ST and DX if you're spreading out into general land. Getting +1 to Trained ST will tend to cost 12 points in skill. Each skill. Striking ST is 5 points and regular ST is 10. So ST is a winner here.
...
Not sure I get this comparison, since if you were spending that 12 points on the skill you also get the actual skill increase as well? which you wouldn't get with just spending on to increase ST or Striking ST directly. I.e its not a like for like comparison.

That increase in skill can be leveraged in a lot of different way so its difficult to judge it's value (especially as many of those ways will dependent on relative and/or comparative skills), but at the very least those different ways make you more versatile in combat. If nothing else 12 points of skill will be at the minimum +3 skill which is enough to buy off targeting the vitals for a lot of weapons.

I get your point about it being cheaper to buy DX if you're a generalist, but with this system skill is mimicking the effects of ST which doesn't drive many skills. I.e not many generalists spend on ST in order to increase their ability as generalists.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 06-24-2014 at 04:26 AM.
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2014, 07:42 AM   #23
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Not sure I get this comparison, since if you were spending that 12 points on the skill you also get the actual skill increase as well? which you wouldn't get with just spending on to increase ST or Striking ST directly. I.e its not a like for like comparison.
Single Skill would be, as per PK's old post (reposted by the matrix walker), somewhere around -60%. That means if you wanted to spend those [12] on Striking ST (Single Skill), you'd be able to buy 6 levels of it for the price you're paying for skill. Under the Technique System from Martial Arts, getting +3 to damage (what you get on thrust) is worth -6 to skill, getting +6 (what you get on swing) is worth -12, so Striking ST wins out there. Looking at it another way, we're effectively decreasing the price of +3 to skill from [12] to [10], then requiring the character to purchase Striking ST +1 (Single Skill -60%) [2]. That doesn't strike me as being very unbalanced.
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2014, 08:11 AM   #24
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Single Skill would be, as per PK's old post (reposted by the matrix walker), somewhere around -60%. That means if you wanted to spend those [12] on Striking ST (Single Skill), you'd be able to buy 6 levels of it for the price you're paying for skill.

Under the Technique System from Martial Arts, getting +3 to damage (what you get on thrust) is worth -6 to skill, getting +6 (what you get on swing) is worth -12, so Striking ST wins out there.
OK so the comparison is +3 skill vs. +6ST for hitting with that skill (assuming you'd allow +6 ST or that technique of course).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Looking at it another way, we're effectively decreasing the price of +3 to skill from [12] to [10], then requiring the character to purchase Striking ST +1 (Single Skill -60%) [2]. That doesn't strike me as being very unbalanced.
Sorry I don't understand, how are you reducing the cost of skill? The increase on ST just appears to be a freebie on top of the skill?

More over it's a freebie on points you going to be spending anyway. High skill is it own reward, this just seems to make it even more so?

Also I don't see where your getting Striking +1 for every 3 levels from? You table had DX+4 with +2, +3 & +4 ST for Average, fast and v.fast progression (that's a free 4,6 & 8 pts each) the +1 St per +3 levels starts after that.

Sorry I may have missed something you posted since

To be honest if your allowing +1ST specialised by skill at 2pts per level I'd argue that's cheap enough as is.

While I agree training allows you to hit harder then the untrained, I'm actually thinking realistically that there's hard upper limit to how much value is added just from training. (which would match why the bonus for Karate and boxing tops out at +2 damage)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 06-24-2014 at 08:25 AM.
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2014, 08:25 AM   #25
aesir23
 
aesir23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Vermont
Default Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]

Well, I make combat generalists more appealing by having more generous defaults as a house rule (in particular, Swords and Axes default to each other, as do one handed and two-handed weapons), and by allowing Melee Weapon Talent ("Born on a Battlefield"), Unarmed Fighting Talent ("Living Weapon"), and Ranged Weapon Talent ("Deadshot").

I'm not sure how these should interact with Trained Strength, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
You're going to have some rather odd results of a DX10 fighter at DX+3 fights a DX18 fighter at DX-1. The latter fighter is still a lot better overall, just less specialized.
I don't think those results are odd at all. The DX 18 fighter will almost certainly win thanks to their nearly superhuman reflexes and agility (and rightly so, they spend 160 points for the privilege to the other guys 16). However, the guy who's spend more time training to use his weapon will do more damage with it because he has proper form and muscles developed from long hours swinging a sword.

That said, I personally think that DX 18 is pretty super-human. Within more realistic stat ranges, the person who's spent more points on the skill should beat someone with raw ability but less training most of the time.

This is a feature, not a bug.
aesir23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2014, 08:28 AM   #26
aesir23
 
aesir23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Vermont
Default Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
\
While I agree training allows you to hit harder then the untrained, I'm actually thinking realistically that there's hard upper limit to how much value is added just from training. (which would match why the bonus for Karate and boxing tops out at +2 damage)
I agree that some upper limit is definitely appropriate, but disagree about where that limit should lie. I'm suggesting DX +10 (+5 ST) as a hard limit for how much Trained ST you can earn. The only skills that can currently earn this bonus in my house rules (Karate, Boxing and Sumo) only do Thrusting Damage, so this translates to a +3 damage that is much harder to earn than the current +2.

For Melee weapons, which are almost all Average Progression, DX +10 gets you +4 ST, so +2 Thrusting Damage or +1d Swing Damage (which translates to +4 in pips to dice). This is significant, but it also represents a 40 point investment in a single skill (for an Average skill)! If you wanted to reach that skill level in play, you'd have to study for 8,000 hours.

At the far more common mark of DX +4, we're talking about +3 ST for Fast Progression and +2 ST for Average. This really isn't game breaking power, it's not going to replace investments in ST or Striking ST.


Incidentally, do you have the same objections to the RAW Trained Strength for Grappling as laid out in GURPS Technical Grappling?

Last edited by aesir23; 06-24-2014 at 08:42 AM.
aesir23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2014, 08:36 AM   #27
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
Default Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]

Trained ST gives you a (correct) boost in striking power for investing points in skill. Just like Karate, Boxing, Brawling, Wrestling, and Sumo. And Weapon Master, though you're paying lots of extra CP for that.

Basically, you get all sorts of bonuses for high relative skill level with unarmed combat skills. Karate and Judo allow you to parry weapons at no penalty. Karate, Boxing, Brawling, Wrestling, and Sumo give ST/damage bonuses for high relative skill level, and the upper end of the Karate bonus, that you get at DX+2, IIRC, is the equivalent of +60% to ST (+2/die is a huge bonus).

So adding skill-based damage bonuses, especially in the form of extra ST (+2 swing/+1 thrust per +2 bonus) is not a unique feature of Trained ST for weapons. It's restoring parity to weapons in terms of invested skill.

In terms of what you get, for 12 points in skill once you get past the initial learning curve, you get a +1 bonus to ST for that skill ONLY. That's "trained" ST, sport-specific ST. If you've only got one or two skills, this makes sense from point-frugality, from realism, and allows a wider swath of character concepts.

Point-wise, it's much cheaper to buy Striking ST or even full-on regular ST to get a more widely applicable bonus, which also increases your BL and HP.

So basically, I look at Trained ST as a non-issue, which unifies the "train the skill, get better at hitting strongly with it" parts of GURPS if done right (and I'm not convinced we know what 'right' is yet for striking skills).

From a point-efficiency standpoint, it is not something that broadly competent characters that focus in DX and ST will even be interested in if they wish to be equally good at six or more DX-based skills (60 points for +3 to DX; 6 skills at 12 points each for +3; +1 ST for 10 points, +1 to ST for six skills included in the price of the skill). You're also giving up every other +3 and another ).75 to Basic Speed.

Overall, the only real issue in my mind to applying Trained ST to weapon skills is that weapons are already pretty darn effective to begin with, and boosting them does not make that better. That's why most of these proposals carry significant damage/ST reductions when your skill is lower than some level, say DX to DX+2, depending.
__________________
My blog:Gaming Ballistic, LLC
My Store: Gaming Ballistic on Shopify
My Patreon: Gaming Ballistic on Patreon
DouglasCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2014, 08:37 AM   #28
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
Default Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
While I agree training allows you to hit harder then the untrained, I'm actually thinking realistically that there's hard upper limit to how much value is added just from training. (which would match why the bonus for Karate and boxing tops out at +2 damage)
Not +2 damage. +2 per die . . . which is +60% boost to ST! To get that bonus with my Fast progression, you need to have DX+13 AND a GM that allows that table to be extended past +5/+50%.
__________________
My blog:Gaming Ballistic, LLC
My Store: Gaming Ballistic on Shopify
My Patreon: Gaming Ballistic on Patreon
DouglasCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2014, 08:40 AM   #29
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
Default Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
I agree that some upper limit is definitely appropriate, but disagree about where that limit should lie.

Incidentally, do you have the same objections to the RAW Trained Strength for Grappling as laid out in GURPS Technical Grappling?
And if there is such an objection (sniff, sniff, pout), do we also have objections to Strongbow, which is basically Trained ST for bows.

Designer's Note: Trained ST was me looking at Power Grappling, Strongbow, and the damage bonuses for Wrestling, Sumo, and to some extent Karate and Boxing and saying "yes, GURPS already has this built in, and it matches my experience as a grappler. Let us make it, dare I say, more generic."
__________________
My blog:Gaming Ballistic, LLC
My Store: Gaming Ballistic on Shopify
My Patreon: Gaming Ballistic on Patreon
DouglasCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2014, 08:41 AM   #30
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Trained Strength for Striking [TG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
I agree that some upper limit is definitely appropriate, but disagree about where that limit should lie.

Incidentally, do you have the same objections to the RAW Trained Strength for Grappling as laid out in GURPS Technical Grappling?
No, not really because ST is king in grappling, I have now problem with St adn skill being force multipliers here.

And that ST is not going to be used to cut through armour, but to manipulate the target's body.
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
martial arts, technical grappling, trained st, trained strength

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.