Trained Strength for Striking [TG]

[aesir23]

So, this has come up before, and very recently in this thread, but I thought it deserved it's own space for discussion.

When you train to fight, some part of that training involves the proper ergonomics of maximizing your striking power. I tend to think of this as "hitting with your whole body", because that's what it means in most my own martial arts training.*

Now, GURPS already gives a damage bonus for high levels of Karate, Brawling, and Boxing, and for weapons if you buy Weapon Master. But increased weapon Damage with high skills isn't particularly cinematic.

The Trained Strength rules from Technical Grappling seem like a good alternative for achieving increased striking power from high skill.

Douglas Cole gives his thoughts on the matter here.


My own thoughts are to simply reduce all Melee and Thrown weapon damage (by -1, perhaps?), and then plug them into a Trained Strength Progression:

Fast Progression: Karate, Boxing, Sumo Wrestling (for Shoves and Slams).

Average Progression: Brawling, All Melee and Thrown Weapons not listed below.

Slow Progression: Fencing Weapons (on the grounds that they rely on finesse and were designed for combat against unarmored opponents): Main-Gauche, Rapier, Saber, Smallsword. (I could see adding Knife and Whip to this progression, maybe?) Non-striking skills used to strike would also use Slow Progression (Skill Adaptation Perks, for example. E.G. Acrobatic Kicks and Judo Chops.)

Another interesting option would be to allow Bow to benefit from Trained Strength as well, with higher skill allowing you to pull a stronger bow--this would eliminate the need for high levels of Arm ST (which always kind of annoyed me, because it meant that stylists of Foot Archery can hit harder with a sword than actual swordsmen), and could probably replace the Strongbow Perk.



*I've trained the longest in Hsing-I and Baji Chuan (GURPS write-up available here), but I've also studied Wing Chun, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and I've dabbled in Jeet Kune Do and Boxing. My weapon training (in GURPS terms) covers Spear, Staff, and Broadsword.

[Tomsdad]

When it comes to bows I tend to allow bow users to make the equivalent of an extra effort roll to increase there basic draw weight but using their bow skill rather than will power. (but with no FP cost, if you use the rules in the deadly spring this can increase how quickly a heavier bow is drawn and reduced AP cost if using last gasp).

That way I can have your ability to draw more powerful bows as a matter of experience from training as well as underlying ST. And your choice of bow isn't just one you can pull draw at your best, but one you can reliably draw time and time again.

I also allow those to add an EE roll on top of this if they need to because maybe they fluffed the skill based roll (or choose to try an even higher pull bow that would normally be out of there comfort zone).

But TBH trained ST for Drawing bows might just be an easier way of doing it.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Another interesting option would be to allow Bow to benefit from Trained Strength as well, with higher skill allowing you to pull a stronger bow--this would eliminate the need for high levels of Arm ST (which always kind of annoyed me, because it meant that stylists of Foot Archery can hit harder with a sword than actual swordsmen), and could probably replace the Strongbow Perk.

This seems right to me, and I'd use the Fast progression for it. Already mirroring Strongbow, which gives +1 ST at DX+1 and +2 at DX+2.

[Varyon]

I've recently been revamping this system, and Trained ST is part of it. Your categories look alright to me, although I don't think fencing styles should use Slow Progression - rather, they should typically be restricted to thrusting damage ("swings" would do thr cut). Note this already makes them have slower damage progression than most other weapons, as they need +2 to ST for every +1 to damage.

For reference, here are the progressions I'm going to be working with. Weapon Master automatically gives +1 to progression (Slow to Average, Average to Fast, Fast to Very Fast). Beyond DX+4, every +3 to skill is +1 to ST, as normal.

Progression	DX-1	DX	DX+1	DX+2	DX+4
Slow		-2	-1	-1	0	+1
Average		-2	-1	0	+1	+2
Fast		-2	-1	+1	+2	+3
Very Fast	-2	-1	+2	+3	+4

As for bows, I'd be tempted to use Average Progression, with Strongbow and Weapon Master each giving +1.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

This seems right to me, and I'd use the Fast progression for it. Already mirroring Strongbow, which gives +1 ST at DX+1 and +2 at DX+2.

Yeah, I think you're right. Fast Progression, no Strongbow Perk seems to work very well.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I've recently been revamping this system, and Trained ST is part of it.

That stuff looks really interesting, I'm going to have to take a closer look! It's a lot to absorb, right now.

One of my ulterior motives for putting Fencing on the Slow progression was to address the questions in this thread. It makes Fencing more of an even trade off, I think--so if you want to take Broadsword as a fencing weapon, now you're trading better parries for both Encumbrance penalties AND slower progression. Although I have been an advocate for a cap on swing damage in the past, this would make that unnecessary.

I think the effects of Weapon Master and Trained by a Master are open questions. I already use a House Rule that replaces Trained by a Master with Weapon Master (Unarmed).

I like the idea of increasing progression 1 step with Weapon Master. Of course, then there's the question of whether Boxing and Karate get a damage bonus too, despite already being fast...

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by aesir23

That stuff looks really interesting, I'm going to have to take a closer look! It's a lot to absorb, right now.

That version's outdated, I need to clean up and post the new-and-improved one. In both cases, however, I put Fencing (Footwork in the new version) as +1 to difficulty, meaning it costs [4] extra points to be as good at Fencing with a broadsword as it would to be able to use it normally. With the current version, you could drop it back down to Average progression by putting some limitation on it - Slow Progression, Focused (only useful against a single opponent), or Restricted (no Swing damage) - while I think Restricted (no Swing damage) is more appropriate, Slow Progression certainly makes sense. Well, actually, I'd probably recreate the current Rapier as Fast Progression (+2 difficulty), Footwork (+1 difficulty), Focused (-1 difficulty), Restricted (no Swing; -1 difficulty), Restricted (very light blades only; -1 difficulty). I really need to get around to posting that update...

Originally Posted by aesir23

I think the effects of Weapon Master and Trained by a Master are open questions. I already use a House Rule that replaces Trained by a Master with Weapon Master (Unarmed).

I like the idea of increasing progression 1 step with Weapon Master. Of course, then there's the question of whether Boxing and Karate get a damage bonus too, despite already being fast...

I use a house rule I stole from Peter Dell'Orto - TbaM lets you treat your arms as though they were weapons for purposes of Parrying and being Parried. I take it a step further and give the character an additional DR 4 for free against Aggressive Parries and the like to keep up the "my hands are weapons" theme.

As for Boxing and Karate, Fast Progression should replace their normal damage bonus, just as Average Progression should replace the damage bonus of Brawling. Personally, however, I have the ST bonus count "double" for Thrusting attacks, such that every +1 to ST is +1 to both Thrust and Swing, rather than being +1/2 to Thrust and +1 to Swing. This would match the damage bonuses from Brawling, Boxing, and Karate.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Varyon

As for Boxing and Karate, Fast Progression should replace their normal damage bonus, just as Average Progression should replace the damage bonus of Brawling.

Yep, this was always my intention, I apologize for not making it explicit.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Personally, however, I have the ST bonus count "double" for Thrusting attacks, such that every +1 to ST is +1 to both Thrust and Swing, rather than being +1/2 to Thrust and +1 to Swing. This would match the damage bonuses from Brawling, Boxing, and Karate.

Yes, I can see the merits of this...Very interesting. I'll have to think on it more.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Yep, this was always my intention, I apologize for not making it explicit.
Yes, I can see the merits of this...Very interesting. I'll have to think on it more.

I'd say this is good for cinema, bad for realism, since the bonuses for Karate at +2 per die are the equivalent of a 60% increase in ST - off the scale in terms of Trained ST.

Not saying you can't do it, but it's a BIG boost.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I'd say this is good for cinema, bad for realism, since the bonuses for Karate at +2 per die are the equivalent of a 60% increase in ST - off the scale in terms of Trained ST.

Not saying you can't do it, but it's a BIG boost.

Hmmm, if unarmed damage is going to take a hit (generally), then there should probably be some additional damage bonus for TBaM or WM (Unarmed). Probably not switching Thrust to Swing, but something significant.

[aesir23]

What do you guys think about dropping weapon damage by 1 before applying Trained ST? Too much or not enough?

Dropping them by 2 certainly makes some sense...