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Old 07-11-2018, 08:40 AM   #1
muduri
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Harlem, New York
Default combat without actual defense rolls?

Everyone in our group enjoys roleplaying, but it's a 50/50 split between those who like crunchy combat as well and those who roll their eyes every time it comes up. So depending on who's playing, at one end we get to about the hit location and extra effort level, and at the other the quick contest of skills I've seen mentioned on the forums. Fair enough!

I would like to try one other variant and see how it goes over. Talking with the noncombatants about That Other Game, surprisingly the difference with most leverage was the absence of Dodge/Parry/Block. May seem odd to us RPG veterans, but apparently finding those stats and making a decision every time you're hit (or, on the other side, the psychological effect of waiting for your turn, hitting with your dagger and then finding out it was dodged) can be the extra burden that makes combat boring if you were a humanities major.

SO, are there any easy ways to drop defenses for a little more game speed and still keep some semblance of balance? I can think of three easy mechanics:

1) Drop them entirely: a successful attack roll just hits. Seems a bit annoying for characters (PC or NPC) who have a high parry or dodge though of course.

2) Subtract the highest defense number from the attack roll every time. A bit of a shame that your second-best defense never comes up of course.

3) Have the target declare (before the attack is rolled presumably) which, if any, defense they want to use, and subtract it from the attack roll.

Very curious if people have tried these (especially if I just missed existing threads about this on the forums); what weird skews it might cause in the odds between different combatants; and if one of these three might be the best, or if there's something better I haven't thought of. Much appreciated!
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:51 AM   #2
ericthered
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Default Re: combat without actual defense rolls?

I would subtract half the highest defense roll, not the full defense roll. An attack at skill 12 vs a defense at skill 10 has about a 35% chance of connecting with standard use. rolling against a 7 is still about 17%, but its a lot better than rolling against 2.



You could also get a reasonable effect by subtracting how far above 8 the defense score is. So a 12 rolling against defense of 10 needs a 10 to hit.



Dropping defense options without dropping defense might speed things up. If all you can do is roll against 10 to defend, that streamlines things. Players don't look up all their options, they just defend



Rolling defense and hit at the same time isn't a bad option, if the problem is "Dice Transfer". It gives a player being attacked less to do, but you may be able to solve your problem just by spending less time shifting the spotlight back and forth.



If looking up the defense is what always takes time, you could simply say "Mooks roll vs. 8, worthies and slow heroes vs. 10, and fast heroes and bosses vs. 12". Its sloppy, but I don't think its worse than anything mentioned above.



You've probably already considered this, but its possible that those players just don't like combat at all, and you should include less of it and possibly raise the stakes each time it comes up.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:09 AM   #3
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: combat without actual defense rolls?

GURPS is really too lethal without rolled defenses (as the variability gives players agency in the fate of their characters). If you do not allow rolled defense, I would suggest toning down the lethality, at least when characters are aware of their attackers.

One alternative would be to replace each type of defense with an equivalent level of effective DR (with Cosmic and Forcefield) that is reduced by defense penalties (meaning that the attacker hits on a success but reduces their damage by the appropriate defense of the character). In that case though, I would suggest reducing the Dodge DR of a character by 1 for every attack that they have used Dodge against during a turn. It does mean that defenses are less useful against firearms, but that may reflect your interpretation of reality anyway.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:17 AM   #4
DocRailgun
 
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Default Re: combat without actual defense rolls?

Is there something your group as a whole prefers about GURPS if the combat system isn't appealing? I suppose I could see that the modular character creation system might allow for a lot of options for players but that system is really based around the idea of making characters for that combat system that your players don't care for. Maybe a different game is actually a better idea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by muduri View Post
Everyone in our group enjoys roleplaying, but it's a 50/50 split between those who like crunchy combat as well and those who roll their eyes every time it comes up. So depending on who's playing, at one end we get to about the hit location and extra effort level, and at the other the quick contest of skills I've seen mentioned on the forums. Fair enough!

I would like to try one other variant and see how it goes over. Talking with the noncombatants about That Other Game, surprisingly the difference with most leverage was the absence of Dodge/Parry/Block. May seem odd to us RPG veterans, but apparently finding those stats and making a decision every time you're hit (or, on the other side, the psychological effect of waiting for your turn, hitting with your dagger and then finding out it was dodged) can be the extra burden that makes combat boring if you were a humanities major.

SO, are there any easy ways to drop defenses for a little more game speed and still keep some semblance of balance? I can think of three easy mechanics:

1) Drop them entirely: a successful attack roll just hits. Seems a bit annoying for characters (PC or NPC) who have a high parry or dodge though of course.

2) Subtract the highest defense number from the attack roll every time. A bit of a shame that your second-best defense never comes up of course.

3) Have the target declare (before the attack is rolled presumably) which, if any, defense they want to use, and subtract it from the attack roll.

Very curious if people have tried these (especially if I just missed existing threads about this on the forums); what weird skews it might cause in the odds between different combatants; and if one of these three might be the best, or if there's something better I haven't thought of. Much appreciated!
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:54 PM   #5
muduri
 
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Default Re: combat without actual defense rolls?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I would subtract half the highest defense roll, not the full defense roll. An attack at skill 12 vs a defense at skill 10 has about a 35% chance of connecting with standard use. rolling against a 7 is still about 17%, but its a lot better than rolling against 2.

You could also get a reasonable effect by subtracting how far above 8 the defense score is. So a 12 rolling against defense of 10 needs a 10 to hit.

...

If looking up the defense is what always takes time, you could simply say "Mooks roll vs. 8, worthies and slow heroes vs. 10, and fast heroes and bosses vs. 12"...

You've probably already considered this, but its possible that those players just don't like combat at all, and you should include less of it and possibly raise the stakes each time it comes up.
Thanks ericthered, those are exactly the kind of probabilities I wanted to take into account - half the defense roll is probably the way to go.

"Dice transfer" is well put, but I think "looking up attack and defense" is (maybe surprisingly for us) the real crux. If we try something in between maybe I'll just standardize three levels of defense as you suggest.

And finally yes, since attendance is unpredictable for each game, humorously I've ended up essentially designing two parallel adventures for each session, one DF-ish and one murder-mystery-style intrigue. Apart from the extra work the demographic tailoring goes over well!
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:58 PM   #6
muduri
 
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Default Re: combat without actual defense rolls?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
GURPS is really too lethal without rolled defenses (as the variability gives players agency in the fate of their characters). If you do not allow rolled defense, I would suggest toning down the lethality, at least when characters are aware of their attackers...
Also a good point - at the risk of seeming like a That Other Game recidivist, I've already been tripling HP to decrease the full-health / unconscious binarity of combat (I grant that has a hand in making combat last longer, ha). Will look at using defense DR as an alternative!
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:11 PM   #7
evileeyore
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Default Re: combat without actual defense rolls?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
If looking up the defense is what always takes time...
It sounds to me like it's more the psychology of rolling to hit, 'hitting', and then finding out "No, the goblin dodged".

Where rolling to hit and missing isn't as unfun as the above. Thus I think muduri needs a system of their defense is your penalty to hit.

The "Subtract 8 from the Defense and Apply it as a Penalty To Hit" sounds workable. It does mean that defenses below 8 give a bonus to hit (when they probably shouldn't) but that might also be a winning strategy.

Though this (and half defense as a penalty) still imparts some choice paralysis in Players as they have to decide do they use their iterative Parry or their worse Dodge defense here, and so forth.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:23 PM   #8
muduri
 
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Default Re: combat without actual defense rolls?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocRailgun View Post
Is there something your group as a whole prefers about GURPS if the combat system isn't appealing? I suppose I could see that the modular character creation system might allow for a lot of options for players but that system is really based around the idea of making characters for that combat system that your players don't care for. Maybe a different game is actually a better idea?
Ach, fair question. Hoping that by this point I've spread my love for GURPS to them - even if not everyone loves complex combat, everything else (character design, skill mechanics, reaction rolls) seem superlative. How can you leave "lesser noble dabbling in merchantry and the dark arts; grudging support from his clan and guild but squabbling with his brothers" for "Human/Fighter/Eldritch Knight/Noble"? And I love avoiding the baroque preciousness of terms like Benny, Foe Slayer or White Shade. Hopefully dropping the defense rolls will get the holdouts over this last hurdle, ha.
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:03 PM   #9
Colarmel
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
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Default Re: combat without actual defense rolls?

In my action game, I don't let Mooks defend. Mooks are there to stand bravely outside cover firing at the general direction of the enemy 80s action movie style. Significant Henchmen and up get defense rolls. This means that while the big bad is dodging, combatants who aren't combat monsters have options for thinning the enemy force without worrying about dodges.

Second thing is, broadly, build your enemies with relatively low active defenses. And do it with a probability table available, that way, enemies dodging is cool, rather than feeling like a terrible inevitability.

Finally, If the outcome of a combat isn't in doubt, resolve it in story mode, rather than combat time. Encourage your players to describe their plan for resolving the situation, make them roll dice, and describe the final outcome.

Other advice really depends on the power level of the PCs.
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:09 PM   #10
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Default Re: combat without actual defense rolls?

I have horde combat rules where there is no defense roll. (https://hups.kivinen.iki.fi/k2011:combat#horde_combat) , they are based on approximate probabilities to get though defenses. We use them only against hordes, but could give an idea.

----
Horde combat

Occasionally there will be hordes of enemies vs the PCs.

These are simplified rules encapsulating the approximate probability of hitting an enemy and them failing their defense roll.

Base hit for attacker skill 15 vs a defense 9 enemy is 10-
Each +2 skill is +1 to the number up to 14-
Each +1 defense is -1 to the number down to 4-

Remember to reduce your skill for things like hit locations if you want to bypass armor(as mooks often have only partial armor protection) and multiple strikes.
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