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Old 12-12-2017, 12:18 AM   #1
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Large Monster Combat Questions

Was looking at fighting giant monsters, and ran into some puzzles:

What does parrying or blocking a slam do?
Does the attacker just suddenly stop, completely ignoring the normal strength check? Getting parried does mean that Hurting Yourself applies, but it appears that the normal knockdown chance does not apply (for either side).

In the case of an overrun, the moving creature can be stopped if it is knocked down -- but a successful block or parry is eliminating the rolls, and thus making it impossible.

My tentative thought is that a parry lets you deflect (neither side is injured, but roll damage normally; loser is shoved out of the contested hex), a block lets you deflect or add your shield bonus to your roll.
What hexes can be attacked in close combat?
There are rules for which hexes are forward hexes and side hexes (though the example contradicts the text, the elephant has five front hexes and should only have three), but those don't apply to the inside of the counter. Presumably any hex is valid for trampling, but what about other attacks with reach C?
Overrun and Attack
B392 lets you retreat out of close combat, and Exploits clarifies that this means you can use a defense that is not usable in close combat. However, a large creature can overrun the target and then attack, in which case there is no hex you can retreat to that is not in close combat. Is this legal?
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:09 AM   #2
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Large Monster Combat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Was looking at fighting giant monsters, and ran into some puzzles:

What does parrying or blocking a slam do?
Does the attacker just suddenly stop, completely ignoring the normal strength check? Getting parried does mean that Hurting Yourself applies, but it appears that the normal knockdown chance does not apply (for either side).

In the case of an overrun, the moving creature can be stopped if it is knocked down -- but a successful block or parry is eliminating the rolls, and thus making it impossible.

My tentative thought is that a parry lets you deflect (neither side is injured, but roll damage normally; loser is shoved out of the contested hex), a block lets you deflect or add your shield bonus to your roll.
What hexes can be attacked in close combat?
There are rules for which hexes are forward hexes and side hexes (though the example contradicts the text, the elephant has five front hexes and should only have three), but those don't apply to the inside of the counter. Presumably any hex is valid for trampling, but what about other attacks with reach C?
Overrun and Attack
B392 lets you retreat out of close combat, and Exploits clarifies that this means you can use a defense that is not usable in close combat. However, a large creature can overrun the target and then attack, in which case there is no hex you can retreat to that is not in close combat. Is this legal?


I feel like I'm asking a really stupid question here, but what's the strength roll for Slams and Overruns?

Anyway

Parries vs. slams/overruns, are you using the alternative rules in Pyramid 77, where the effective weight is based off BL not ST. That limits the scope of parrying.

Blocks vs. Slams/overruns, you could use the damage to shield and over penetration rules for successful blocks against large slams and overruns. A slam from roughly equal in size opponents is unlikely to risk this, but a bigger opponent might threaten it. Say you try and block a ST24 warhorse going full clip at Mv10 they're doing 3d-2 cr, that's going to risk knock back on ST10 people, and might even get past Shield Cover DR


Looking at the damage to shield box on pg484 you can still suffer knock back on a successful Block. (although knock back is odd with slams)


In terms of successful blocks stopping a slamming/overrunning opponent dead, I;d probably house rule something like anything that was doing more than double the damage range you would have been will carry past like dodge

On large differences in SM, re overruns there are rules in pyramid 77 for limiting active defences to just getting out the way, although it's a bit 'threashold-y' IMO when you take the above into account

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-12-2017 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:28 AM   #3
Tenrath
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Default Re: Large Monster Combat Questions

From a purely physics standpoint if you hold your shield up and block then all of that energy would still be transferred to you. I'd say maybe subtract the shield's DB from the opponent's roll for knockback.

Parries are super risky because it should almost always count as parrying a heavy weapon. So roll for weapon breakage. You should be rolling for "hurting yourself" when someone/something charges into someone/something holding a sharp object. Still, even a "successful" parry shouldn't eliminate the knockback from the slam. I find it hard to imagine someone with a rapier deflecting a charging bull.

Perhaps the best way to reconcile these with the rules as written would be a block/parry is just enough to help you get out of the way. You aren't just absorbing the damage with your shield or pushing the charger out of the way with your sword, you are using them as leverage to move safely away.
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:37 AM   #4
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Large Monster Combat Questions

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Originally Posted by Tenrath View Post
From a purely physics standpoint if you hold your shield up and block then all of that energy would still be transferred to you. I'd say maybe subtract the shield's DB from the opponent's roll for knockback.

Parries are super risky because it should almost always count as parrying a heavy weapon. So roll for weapon breakage. You should be rolling for "hurting yourself" when someone/something charges into someone/something holding a sharp object. Still, even a "successful" parry shouldn't eliminate the knockback from the slam. I find it hard to imagine someone with a rapier deflecting a charging bull.

Perhaps the best way to reconcile these with the rules as written would be a block/parry is just enough to help you get out of the way. You aren't just absorbing the damage with your shield or pushing the charger out of the way with your sword, you are using them as leverage to move safely away.
Blocks with shields can be about deflection* as well as just absorbtion, but yeah I agree the whole area of objects hitting objects and mass in general can get a bit odd in the various areas where they come up in the rules.

*and yeah the distinction between blocks and parry is accordingly blurred
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Old 12-12-2017, 09:39 AM   #5
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Large Monster Combat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Was looking at fighting giant monsters, and ran into some puzzles:

What does parrying or blocking a slam do?
Does the attacker just suddenly stop, completely ignoring the normal strength check? Getting parried does mean that Hurting Yourself applies, but it appears that the normal knockdown chance does not apply (for either side).
Replace the 'attack weight' for unarmed attacks (and particularly slams) with something less wrong than Basic, and this issue seems to at least be greatly reduced on the large-creature end. Since parrying or blocking a slam is right out unless you've got at least half the attacker's ST using Combat Writ Large...

ST 10 stopping a charging pony with a (two-handed) parry is still perhaps a bit out there. My own inclination is to use more generous numbers for slam weight than even that - I don't see why a ST 10 human projectile should be as easy to block as a 10-pound dueling halberd!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
What hexes can be attacked in close combat?
There are rules for which hexes are forward hexes and side hexes (though the example contradicts the text, the elephant has five front hexes and should only have three), but those don't apply to the inside of the counter. Presumably any hex is valid for trampling, but what about other attacks with reach C?
I'd probably default to 'any hex', because the alternative would require you to address the placement and possibly facing of all the 'reach C' attacks on the body

Alternatively, you probably need to consider which hexes within the multi-hex figure count as front, side, and back, or potentially mixtures depending on in-hex positioning, to deal with the possibility of overrun victims striking back in CC. That could be useful for this as well.
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Overrun and Attack
B392 lets you retreat out of close combat, and Exploits clarifies that this means you can use a defense that is not usable in close combat. However, a large creature can overrun the target and then attack, in which case there is no hex you can retreat to that is not in close combat. Is this legal?
I'd be inclined to give them the defense anyway - while they're still in close combat overall, the retreat would still create space relative to attacks that were directed initially at where they retreated from.
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:34 AM   #6
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Large Monster Combat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Replace the 'attack weight' for unarmed attacks (and particularly slams) with something less wrong than Basic, and this issue seems to at least be greatly reduced on the large-creature end. Since parrying or blocking a slam is right out unless you've got at least half the attacker's ST using Combat Writ Large....
Is there a RAW upper weight threshold for what you can block? (similar to parry)
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:50 AM   #7
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Large Monster Combat Questions

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Is there a RAW upper weight threshold for what you can block? (similar to parry)
Not that I'm aware of, though damage to shields does permit breaking through or knocking you back.
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:56 AM   #8
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Large Monster Combat Questions

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Is there a RAW upper weight threshold for what you can block? (similar to parry)
Hmm, Basic doesn't actually say that the hard parry weight cap also applies to blocking.

In case it didn't go without saying, I think it should in some respect. Though maybe only to the extent of a successful block against something heavier still being subject to the 'actually it hit your shield' effects in Damage to Shields.


Side note, the text on multi-hex figures says that they can keep moving unless they were themselves knocked down in the slam. It doesn't make it conditional on them knocking down the subject of their overrun! This seems somewhat useful (no, blocking the slam doesn't mean stopping the rhino cold) and somewhat problematic (so how exactly are you standing in the same hex with the rhino, now?)
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:57 AM   #9
chandley
 
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Default Re: Large Monster Combat Questions

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Not that I'm aware of, though damage to shields does permit breaking through.
No upper weight threshold, but Combat Writ Large (Pyramid 77) suggests a 7 SM or greater SM difference allows basic attacks to Attack an Area instead of the specific smaller creature. Area attacks do not allow a Block or Parry at all (you can only Dive for Cover).

That article extends a similar rule for blocking slams. It is well written and useful, but if you are just looking for RAW answers, I guess it won't serve.
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Old 12-13-2017, 03:48 AM   #10
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Default Re: Large Monster Combat Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Not that I'm aware of, though damage to shields does permit breaking through or knocking you back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Hmm, Basic doesn't actually say that the hard parry weight cap also applies to blocking.

In case it didn't go without saying, I think it should in some respect. Though maybe only to the extent of a successful block against something heavier still being subject to the 'actually it hit your shield' effects in Damage to Shields.

If you use the "parrying heavy weapons" rules pg376 You could just say shields have a max upper weight they can block of DBxBL.

If you use this with revised weight of attack rules in 3-77 that would mean ST10 chap blocking that charging ST24 warhorse would need a DB3 shield*


ST24 Warhorse, slam weight = (24x24)/10 = 58lbs

ST10 Human with a DB3 shield, Max Blocking Weight = BL20xDB3 = 60lbs


You could also reference the first section regarding breakage chances where if you are blocking an attack that's more than 3x Shield weight all blocks suffer the damage to shields rules, not just the one that successfully block on DB or less MoS.

In the example above if it was a Large Shield light (10lbs) it would potentially suffer damage on any successful block, as the ST24 Warhorse Slam 58lbs > 30lbs. And actually since that would be 3d-2 cr vs. DR2/HP18 and cover DR6, you going to have issues trying to avoid damage.

But if it was a large shield heavy (20lbs), or scutum (22lbs) it would only do so on a successful block of DB or less MoS. And against DR4/HP22 and cover DR9 even then you'll have less issues. The Scutum would be slightly better of course.

A DB3 kite shield (18lbs) would just fall into the 3 or more time weight threshold 58lbs > 56lbs but at least at DR4/HP18 and cover DR9 it will be better than the large light shield at resisting damage.


The two sides of these rules in pg376 are still inconsistent and overlapping IMO though, and the above tweak doesn't change that



You could also probably adapt the broken blade rules in Pyramid 3-87 as well (maybe replacing Weapon ST with Shield weight for breakage threshold)





*and it would limit smaller shields against slams from similar sized opponents as a ST10 person with DB1 shield can only just block a ST10 person slamming them under this suggestion.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-13-2017 at 09:08 AM.
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