Protecting your young

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

True (but as you say it works both ways), animal instinct can trigger in response to stuff in weird ways though.

As a case in point, cats instinctively bury their feces unless they're very confident in their status and safety. My cat has long hair, and occasionally gets some poop stuck to her butt.

I guess the smell is the trigger for the burying behavior, because when this happens she gets "stuck" in the middle of the room, pawing neurotically at the ground, trying to bury something that isn't even on the floor. She can't stop until one of us hears the pawing sound, and comes to clean her butt.

She clearly thinks coffee smells like poop, because she tries to bury that, too.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Bruno

As a case in point, cats instinctively bury their feces unless they're very confident in their status and safety. My cat has long hair, and occasionally gets some poop stuck to her butt.

I guess the smell is the trigger for the burying behavior, because when this happens she gets "stuck" in the middle of the room, pawing neurotically at the ground, trying to bury something that isn't even on the floor. She can't stop until one of us hears the pawing sound, and comes to clean her butt.

She clearly thinks coffee smells like poop, because she tries to bury that, too.

Yep (interesting example).

Domesticated cats are always liable to throw up odd cases of altered / abnormal behaviour compared to their wild cousins anyway of course

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Yep (interesting example).

Domesticated cats are always liable to throw up odd cases of altered / abnormal behaviour compared to their wild cousins anyway of course

Aside from the fact that cats come and go as they will and thus are questionably domesticated, there is no warrant for the assumption that domestication is abnormal other then the assumption that humans are an abnormal presence in the universe. Domestication is older then recorded history and as much an integral part of given species as any other form of behavior.

As for being altered, wild cousins have been just as much altered by the passing of time as domestic. Certainly they have been altered by the presence of humans. Nocturnalism for instance might well be an adaptation to humans.

[Flyndaran]

There is the so called mammalian domestication syndrome that inclues quite a few seemingly unrelated physical and mental changes.

Domestic cats, as one would expect, exhibit only some of them.

It's hard to say if all our anecdotes of odd behavior proves that domestication allows or enhances the atypical or that we notice it, because we see them all the time.
Maybe wild deer, for example, are just as individual and weird, but they avoid us so thoroughly and are scared when they see us that we wouldn't know.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Aside from the fact that cats come and go as they will and thus are questionably domesticated, there is no warrant for the assumption that domestication is abnormal other then the assumption that humans are an abnormal presence in the universe. Domestication is older then recorded history and as much an integral part of given species as any other form of behavior.

GURPS makes a distinction, IIRC even in terms of Meta-Traits, between two levels of domestication, one that's appropriate mainly to dogs, and one that seems to apply to a wider range of animals including cats.

[Bruno]

I would say dogs and horses. We haven't had quite as long a relationship with horses, but we have had even more control over horse reproduction than we do dogs; nobody lets randy stallions wander around willy-nilly. There's large feral populations of dogs, there's tiny feral populations of horses.

Unlike, e.g., cows (another large animal who's reproduction we control absolutely) we've bred horses specifically for a close working relationship with humans - like dogs. Sometimes we eat horses, but sometimes we eat dogs too, and unlike dogs there's no special food-breed of horses.

We've inserted ourselves into the top of their social hierarchy - like dogs. We use them as a companion animal as well as a working animal - like dogs.

The dog was first, the horse was second, and then after that it's a series of food animals and then you get down to late comer companion or working animals like cats (controlled breeding for appearance, not temperment), ferrets (totally domesticated, but zero respect :), and the exotics.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Aside from the fact that cats come and go as they will and thus are questionably domesticated, there is no warrant for the assumption that domestication is abnormal other then the assumption that humans are an abnormal presence in the universe. Domestication is older then recorded history and as much an integral part of given species as any other form of behavior.

As for being altered, wild cousins have been just as much altered by the passing of time as domestic. Certainly they have been altered by the presence of humans. Nocturnalism for instance might well be an adaptation to humans.

The point is domestication is not an either/or thing but a range. Some of it based a levels of interaction, some cats might come and go (but by no means all) but it's more about where it's food comes from, where it sleeps and where it gives birth (a cat classic is a household thinking they are occasionally feeding a semi feral cat, but half the street thinking the same while the cat sleeps at few favoured houses, the cat is domesticated but at the street level not by anyone one household).

But there are gradations, farm cats are a classic (in fact farm cats are interesting because they have communal existence but maintain individual territories and runs)

But as you say humans are species within a wider community and we will change things with our presence and behaviour. I could see the argument for nocturnal-ism As an example cats and other animals are actually most suited for acting at dusk and dawn, but human light pollution can well create a dusks a dawn light levels at night. (and of course humans are less active at night). Of course we interact with different animals to different extents.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

There is the so called mammalian domestication syndrome that inclues quite a few seemingly unrelated physical and mental changes.

Domestic cats, as one would expect, exhibit only some of them.

It's hard to say if all our anecdotes of odd behavior proves that domestication allows or enhances the atypical or that we notice it, because we see them all the time.
Maybe wild deer, for example, are just as individual and weird, but they avoid us so thoroughly and are scared when they see us that we wouldn't know.

Oh it's true you can't cite the cause of all odd behaviour as domestication, and as you say perception bias and conformation bias is certainly a thing. The issue is it's another factor that can be hard to rule out muddying the waters.

Also as you say individual behaviours exhibit in the wild. Not to mention idiosyncratic localised group behaviours as well. Staying with the cat theme certain prides specialising in certain prey even when such prey is available to other prides who don't hunt it, (basically niche within a niche).

Some unusual (semi) domesticated behaviour is pretty well known though (for instance meowing in adult cats)

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I would say dogs and horses. We haven't had quite as long a relationship with horses, but we have had even more control over horse reproduction than we do dogs; nobody lets randy stallions wander around willy-nilly. There's large feral populations of dogs, there's tiny feral populations of horses.

Unlike, e.g., cows (another large animal who's reproduction we control absolutely) we've bred horses specifically for a close working relationship with humans - like dogs. Sometimes we eat horses, but sometimes we eat dogs too, and unlike dogs there's no special food-breed of horses.

We've inserted ourselves into the top of their social hierarchy - like dogs. We use them as a companion animal as well as a working animal - like dogs.

The dog was first, the horse was second, and then after that it's a series of food animals and then you get down to late comer companion or working animals like cats (controlled breeding for appearance, not temperment), ferrets (totally domesticated, but zero respect :), and the exotics.

Another aspect of this is the animal's usual behaviour in wild suiting it for the specific ways we domesticated it.

Dogs are packs animals that work together in a hierarchy, a lot of our domestication of them was fitting in with that (we are the alpha and we work together).

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Another aspect of this is the animal's usual behaviour in wild suiting it for the specific ways we domesticated it.

Dogs are packs animals that work together in a hierarchy, a lot of our domestication of them was fitting in with that (we are the alpha and we work together).

True, but archaeology and genetic analyses shows that there were many failed attempts to domesticate dogs, cattle, etc. before any "took". And many animals related to common farm animals simply could not be domesticated.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

...
Some unusual (semi) domesticated behaviour is pretty well known though (for instance meowing in adult cats)

It is, or at least should, amaze us that every single domestic cat learns on their own that their instinctive modes of communication don't work on us. They must each figure out that only loud noises in the pitch range of our young gets our attention.