[Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons

[Gigermann]

A bit of an update:

Firstly, when I've been referring to Basic Set bows/crossbows, I should have been referring to Basic Set/Low-Tech, since they work together (and there are a few more varieties).

The "average" sample crossbow in TDS is (AFAIK) a match for the Military Crossbow/TL4; the (cinematic) damage for the (ST22) sample is 1d+1(2), while the damage for the Low-Tech version (at ST22) is 2d+5 (converted to 3d, I think)—so, around 3x damage, neverminding the armor divisor.

On the low end, the "regular" LT Crossbow/TL2 at ST10 damage is 1d+2; I don't think dividing damage by 3 will work out to much, but then that might line up with some of the initial results I was getting from the spreadsheet, which was less than pathetic.

The Military Crossbow is a bit easier to work out from the description; steel bow, and all. What exactly is the Crossbow/TL2, as far as composition, size, etc. goes? If I can, at least, get a good low and high end, that might be enough to establish a general trend; ideally, I would like to get enough of a trend that I could use the "realistic" damage.

OTOH, as has been suggested, it might be just as good to "build" all the BS/LT bows/crossbows from scratch in TDS—there aren't that many—and replace them with the TDS version. I would either need specifications for all of them (a general "ball-park" guess, at least), or a way to use the spreadsheet to reverse-engineer the BS/LT stats.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

The "average" sample crossbow in TDS is (AFAIK) a match for the Military Crossbow/TL4; the (cinematic) damage for the (ST22) sample is 1d+1(2), while the damage for the Low-Tech version (at ST22) is 2d+5 (converted to 3d, I think)—so, around 3x damage, neverminding the armor divisor.

Two points, quickly:

You do understand that 2d+5, or 12 points on average, is an insane amount of damage for even this military crossbow? That's more than a 9mm pistol, which probably has 4-5x the energy and half the cross-sectional area?

If you're looking for a crossbow that does even cinematic damage on that order, you're going to have a hard time. You'll need something like 600 J or more of energy, and that 740-lb. draw medieval crossbow I linked to earlier only had a velocity of 135 fps or so!

So, what you're trying to do, I think, is extract very unrealistic damage values from a hyper-realistic design system: the odds are not in your favor.

Now, if what you want is a series of crossbows, each of which does (say) a point or two more damage, that's a more reasonable goal. The highly-interactive nature of the design system, which says "more load, thicker limbs. Thicker limbs, less efficient. So higher load, etc." means it's not as easy, but it's doable.

What I'd do is first design a bolt for something monstrous, like a 2d(2) type crossbow. Use TL4 steel and a 3-4' span, maybe 7-9" of draw length on a 14-16" bolt.

Then dial it back, reducing the span width and draw force (and limb thickness) until you get a 2d-1 bow. Then 1d+2, 1d+1, etc.

Remember that the third or fourth worksheet of the spreadsheet gives you all the pertinent stats on one line, ready for copy and Paste Special (Values) into a summary table.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

OTOH, as has been suggested, it might be just as good to "build" all the BS/LT bows/crossbows from scratch in TDS—there aren't that many—and replace them with the TDS version. I would either need specifications for all of them (a general "ball-park" guess, at least), or a way to use the spreadsheet to reverse-engineer the BS/LT stats.

This is almost certainly the "best" way.

Let me start with a very high ST bow: a hypothetical 2,000-lb draw seige crossbow with a four-foot TL4 steel span and 8" draw length. They will all be recurved, with oak stocks 36" long. The limbs are a 4:1 rectangular cross-section. Looks like the design doesn't close: I need wider spans or a wider limb (higher width to thickness ratio). Let's try increasing the aspect ratio first.

Looks like I can't really get there without an unusually high cross-section. But I CAN get a 7" draw with a fairly reasonable 5.

We'll keep that.

For the arrow, I make it 3/4" diameter, 14" long, ironwood for the density, and a heavy AP point. That gives heavy quarrel (2255 grains, or a bit over 5 ounces) for maximum efficiency.

And look at that . . . here's a 2d(2) crossbow using the cinematic damage scale.

Bow Stats	
Draw Weight	2000
MinST	36
Draw Length	7
Damage	2d+0 (2) imp
Acc	4
-1/die dmg Range	182
1/2D Range	182
Max Range	182
Weight	30.7/0.32
Bulk	-8
Cost (Bow/Arrow)	$3520/$13.57

From here, you'll want to back DOWN on limb length and power and thickness; you can leave the bolt the same.

[Gigermann]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

If you're looking for a crossbow that does even cinematic damage on that order, you're going to have a hard time.

This is exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to do—I humbly blame myself for failing to properly explain myself (exacerbated by my brain not quite getting into gear, yesterday).

What I'm trying to do is figure out what the stats for the listed weapons in BS/LT should be, using TDS

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Let me start with a very high ST bow: a hypothetical 2,000-lb draw seige crossbow with a four-foot TL4 steel span and 8" draw length. They will all be recurved, with oak stocks 36" long. The limbs are a 4:1 rectangular cross-section. Looks like the design doesn't close: I need wider spans or a wider limb (higher width to thickness ratio). Let's try increasing the aspect ratio first.

Good example for the high end. But how do you decide on the initial makeup—arbitrary? (This, incidentally, is where I'm getting lost.)

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

This is exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to do—I humbly blame myself for failing to properly explain myself (exacerbated by my brain not quite getting into gear, yesterday).

What I'm trying to do is figure out what the stats for the listed weapons in BS/LT should be, using TDS

Well, it takes a man with ST 22 to span a crossbow that does damage like the one that's listed for ST 10 in the Basic Set. So that's not a bad place to start. That one's 750 lbs and an 8-9" draw, with 36" span.

Good example for the high end. But how do you decide on the initial makeup—arbitrary? (This, incidentally, is where I'm getting lost.)

I will admit some of this is "arbitrary," but based on the crossbows discussed and modeled from Low Tech: those were modeled from real museum pieces.

If you look at the modern equivalents, you'll find a rough basic similarity in spans for big crossbows. About 2.5' and up, but the hugely superior materials allow for a much more efficient bow, with lower mass and more draw length.

Here's a thought: keep the 7-8" draw length, but make ten bows, as follows:

Poundage	Span
750	36
850	37.25
950	38.5
1050	39.75
1175	41
1300	42.25
1425	43.5
1550	44.75
1700	46
1850	47.25
2000	48.5

Use all TL4 steel, reflex bows, one string loop, oak stock/support of 36" length.

That will give you a family of bows that is a threat, fairly easy to envision, and with arrowhead choice (AP vs not) will range from 1d to 4d in penetration equivalent.

[Gigermann]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

That will give you a family of bows that is a threat, fairly easy to envision, and with arrowhead choice (AP vs not) will range from 1d to 4d in penetration equivalent.

Ah, now we're getting closer.

What about for TL3? My understanding is that they should be using a horn/sinew composite, but that could be way off. Or would "military" be using TL3 "quality" steel (=TL4, as discussed)? And would the "typical" draw be the same?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

Ah, now we're getting closer.

What about for TL3? My understanding is that they should be using a horn/sinew composite, but that could be way off. Or would "military" be using TL3 "quality" steel (=TL4, as discussed)? And would the "typical" draw be the same?

The draw force and length are the key, with a component of "use the lightest materials possible."

Horn/sinew would require, I think, a different design. Longer draw length, so you could use lighter poundage bows. You could also use some sort of wood/sinew composite, and such "backed' bow limbs were not unheard of.

I look at "TL4" steel as "fine TL3 steel," and "TL5 steel" as "very fine TL3 steel," if you allow such things (TL4 being fine-quality steel works fine; there are some very high-quality pieces out there; they're just one-offs).

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

I got all excited about the "Deadly Spring" article—then it came time to make use of it, and I'm completely stumped. It comes down to this:

I need a TL3 crossbow for some ST10 average-Joe mooks. In Basic Set, I grab the TL3 crossbow at ST10, and move on—done. There's only one sample Medieval-type crossbow in the article (and that one is Min ST 22), which is the wrong TL anyway, so I can't just "downgrade" it.

How does one ever draw such a crossbow? By RAW you can get +5 ST for the best loading device, and you waste 20 turns doing that . . .

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

How does one ever draw such a crossbow? By RAW you can get +5 ST for the best loading device, and you waste 20 turns doing that . . .

Mechanical devices are force MULTIPLIERS. The rules in The Deadly Spring would say a ST 10 man needs a x100 multiplier. That would require 400 seconds to load, cost $2500 (!!), and would weigh 100 lbs. (yow).

This basically means you need a 100-lb. loading device for a 30-35-lb. crossbow. :-)

[Gigermann]

I guess one assumption we have to evaluate is whether the average (or even low-end) crossbowman is actually ST10 (much like the fact that the low-end longbowman couldn't possibly be ST10).

Nearly all combat crossbows I've ever seen have a stirrup, at least—so that'll get a ST10 mook a ST12 draw. I'm not sure if a belt-hook's benefit stacks with the stirrup—if it does, that's up to ST14 draw. With a goat's foot+stirrup (commonly seen, also; again, not sure if it stacks), I think that gets a ST16 draw. Anything beyond that needs a windlass/crank, and that's going to render it mostly-useless in "normal RPG combat" except as a one-shot—which is, maybe, realistic.

I think a ST14 guy can draw the 750lb crossbow with goat's-foot+stirrup (or ST12+Crossbow Finesse, etc.)