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Old 07-23-2011, 08:24 PM   #11
Tzeentch
 
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Default Re: Pyramid #3-33 Low Tech in Review

-- If they are terracotta jugs they will be quite heavy and bulky (see GURPS Low-Tech, p. 34). :)
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Old 07-24-2011, 04:52 AM   #12
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Default Re: Pyramid #3-33 Low Tech in Review

Puella urnam magnam tenet. (I think that's right, from memory of Latin classes 25 years ago.)

Ok, I'm sold on this one. Away I go to e23!
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Old 07-30-2011, 05:47 PM   #13
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Default Re: Pyramid #3-33 Low Tech in Review

I recently bought Pyramid 3/33 and delved into the article "The Deadly Spring" by Douglas S. Cole. Great stuff!

I just have a few things to ask:

1. Could we have reworked statistics for the "generic" bow weapons of GURPS? The longbow is already there, but the others are missing. I would be especially happy for a serious set of statistics for historical steel bows. Realistic bows were terribly fragile and would be quickly ruined during an adventure. The GM has to balance the usefulness of bows against their lack of toughness. Steel bows would save the average GM a lot of trouble.

2. The new article reduces the damage of bows considerably (unless the "cinematic" damage rules are used). This creates the problem that other low-tech ranged weapons appear far more powerful. The sling appears as a howitzer next to the new longbow! Of course, the archers can buy the Strongbow Perk and get a stronger bow, while the slingers have to use their straight ST score (unless there is a Balearic Ancestor Perk for slingers).

Still, I would like a reasonably official suggestion how the other ranged weapons fit in.
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Old 07-30-2011, 10:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: Pyramid #3-33 Low Tech in Review

I managed, by making an assumption about ST and draw weight, to get energy input. After much hair puling, i invented an effective mass equation.

From that i can do energy and damage.

For other ranged weapons, i dont know how to get there.

For the other bows in the various books, i can probably take a shot . . . But with the spreadsheets, so can anyone.

I will take a stab in a few days, but its going to be a bit.
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Old 07-31-2011, 04:19 AM   #15
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Default Re: Pyramid #3-33 Low Tech in Review

@DouglasCole:
Thank you for your quick response.

Of course, anyone can, but that does not mean anyone should.

What I'm asking for is an overhaul of the generic bow stats by the folks of SJgames that fits with the grand scheme of things (meaning the rest of the GURPS rules). New stats for the generic bows should help to keep things consistent.
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Old 07-31-2011, 05:27 AM   #16
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Default Re: Pyramid #3-33 Low Tech in Review

Hmmm. I've been wondering about the elm footbow given as an example.

Realistic damage, according to the entry, is 1d+1 (2) damage. This is a significant amount of damage! While yes, it's a footbow, it makes me wonder something -- what were the Persians using for their own footbow, in the time of fighting the Greeks?

I ask because, correct me if I'm wrong, but though they were able to fire a whole rain of arrows through powerful footbows, they could not penetrate the armor of the hoplites. I'm not entirely sure what Hoplite armor would count as in GURPS terms, but I'd assume it would be little more than DR 6, at the most, with exception to the portion that is the shield (I would assume that they were using shields as cover, since they didn't move the shield to "block" attacks -- and in GURPS terms, they'd only get one block anyways, no matter skill or ability or strength or speed, which would ruin the point of it all).

Now, I don't think they were using elm footbows, but I think we'd be talking about a similar amount of damage -- were they just firing past the 1/2D range?

Or would they also not be using the (2)-grade arrows?
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Old 07-31-2011, 06:48 AM   #17
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Default Re: Pyramid #3-33 Low Tech in Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewulf View Post
Hmmm. I've been wondering about the elm footbow given as an example.
I think the footbows were either horn, or Dwarven steel. Not elm. Still, that's not the thrust of your question:

Quote:
Realistic damage, according to the entry, is 1d+1 (2) damage. This is a significant amount of damage! While yes, it's a footbow, it makes me wonder something -- what were the Persians using for their own footbow, in the time of fighting the Greeks?

I ask because, correct me if I'm wrong, but though they were able to fire a whole rain of arrows through powerful footbows, they could not penetrate the armor of the hoplites. I'm not entirely sure what Hoplite armor would count as in GURPS terms, but I'd assume it would be little more than DR 6, at the most, with exception to the portion that is the shield (I would assume that they were using shields as cover, since they didn't move the shield to "block" attacks -- and in GURPS terms, they'd only get one block anyways, no matter skill or ability or strength or speed, which would ruin the point of it all).

Now, I don't think they were using elm footbows, but I think we'd be talking about a similar amount of damage -- were they just firing past the 1/2D range?

Or would they also not be using the (2)-grade arrows?
Could have been both, but they might have been using softer heads, which would certainly not qualify for the (2). As I mention in the text, that (2) is somewhat speculative. We know it can be done, but it required careful smithing with modern knowledge of time-temperature-transition diagrams to do it.

And the records of fines for poorly hardened arrowhead could be "The King says if you give him another batch of (0.5) arrowheads he will royally smite thee; the next batch had better be (1) rated" as easily as a standard head is (1), and a special one (2).

In this case, if arrows were not doing much penetration, I'd look for (1) or (0.5) for the first-order answer. If they're firing lightweight arrows, they might even lose a point or two (per die) of damage on their way.
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Old 07-31-2011, 06:58 AM   #18
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Default Re: Pyramid #3-33 Low Tech in Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADAXL View Post
@DouglasCole:
Thank you for your quick response.

Of course, anyone can, but that does not mean anyone should.

What I'm asking for is an overhaul of the generic bow stats by the folks of SJgames that fits with the grand scheme of things (meaning the rest of the GURPS rules). New stats for the generic bows should help to keep things consistent.
I should note that the Elm Shortbow, and the yew longbow are both pretty good examples of short and long, respectively.

A ST14 (95-lb. draw) Osage bow, 65" long, will pull to 30" with a GURPS standard arrow.

Code:
Type	Damage	Acc	Range	Weight	Cost	MinST (Draw Weight)	Bulk	Material (Bow; Riser/Stock)	Length	Shape	Draw	Thickness (n)	Energy	Arrow/Head

Bow	1d+1 (1) imp	1	279/279	1.4/0.1	$89/$2	14 (95)	-7	Apple (Horse apple, Hedge apple, Osage Orange)/Apple (Horse apple, Hedge apple, Osage Orange) limbs;Horn  riser	65 (1)	Straight	30.00	0.79 (1)	82 J	31 in Aspen or Poplar (0.484/0) War Arrow, Light
That's your cinematic ST14 regular bow. Realistic damage is 1d.

The Korean reflex bow is a decent example of a composite bow, though it's of low draw. I had a ST 18 Mongol bow that was a real beast.

Code:
Type	Damage	Acc	Range	Weight	Cost	MinST (Draw Weight)	Bulk	Material (Bow; Riser/Stock)	Length	Shape	Draw	Thickness (n)	Energy	Arrow/Head

Bow	1d+2 (1) imp	2	320/385	4.9/0.1	$624/$2	18 (160)	-7	Horn /Sinew limbs;Horn  riser	60 (0.6)	Reflex	30.00	0.72 (2)	113 J	31 in Aspen or Poplar (0.484/0) War Arrow, Light
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Last edited by DouglasCole; 07-31-2011 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 07-31-2011, 07:47 AM   #19
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Default Re: Pyramid #3-33 Low Tech in Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I think the footbows were either horn, or Dwarven steel. Not elm. Still, that's not the thrust of your question:
No, it wasn't, but that was sloppy of me regardless. I was looking at the horn. My bad. x_x

Quote:
Could have been both, but they might have been using softer heads, which would certainly not qualify for the (2). As I mention in the text, that (2) is somewhat speculative. We know it can be done, but it required careful smithing with modern knowledge of time-temperature-transition diagrams to do it.

And the records of fines for poorly hardened arrowhead could be "The King says if you give him another batch of (0.5) arrowheads he will royally smite thee; the next batch had better be (1) rated" as easily as a standard head is (1), and a special one (2).

In this case, if arrows were not doing much penetration, I'd look for (1) or (0.5) for the first-order answer. If they're firing lightweight arrows, they might even lose a point or two (per die) of damage on their way.
Ahhhhh.

Distance was also one of the goals of this kind of footbow, not penetration -- get incredible amounts of people peppering an area. Hence the line, "blot out the sun" -- which is an actual quote, not just from the movie 300, IIRC. So they may have been using "flight" arrows than war arrows.

And if you're dealing with that large a group using bows and arrows with bronze-age tech, then more than likely their stuff is low quality just for mass army equipping purposes. While the Persian army was massive and brought in equipment and weaponry from an incredibly diverse and huge amount of different armies, they weren't the best trained or equipped army -- or rather, they didn't learn to train together, and weaponry was different from one group to another. Which is why they were defeated by the Greek hoplites.

But yeah, it just made me think. Thank you for your reply! It certainly gave me something to think about, especially if I try for a "painfully realistic and rather cynical" kind of medieval game.
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:08 AM   #20
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Default Re: Pyramid #3-33 Low Tech in Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewulf View Post
Distance was also one of the goals of this kind of footbow, not penetration -- get incredible amounts of people peppering an area. Hence the line, "blot out the sun" -- which is an actual quote, not just from the movie 300, IIRC. So they may have been using "flight" arrows than war arrows.
Two things:

The "300" quote appears in its original, if translated, form on p. 15:

"One of the Trachinians told him, “Such was the number of the barbarians, that when they shot forth their arrows, the sun would be darkened by their multitude.” Dieneces, not at all frightened at these words, but making light of the Median numbers, answered, “Our Trachinian friend brings us excellent tidings. If the Medes darken the sun, we shall have our fight in the shade.”

– Herodotus, The Histories



These kinds of flight arrows should not only be made as light as possible for maximum range, they might even use a special device that allows firing a much, much shorter arrow from a long-draw bow. Some sort of split tube, it allowed massive overdraw.

However, a six-foot footbow might not be very practical for this kind of work.
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