10-28-2013, 12:47 PM | #21 | |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.
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10-28-2013, 12:52 PM | #22 |
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.
Normal slams should be. But a 'weapon slam' (charge)?
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10-28-2013, 12:59 PM | #23 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.
Also should be. Penetration is mostly going to depend on the kinetic energy of the lance -- which isn't all that heavy, and isn't moving particularly fast. The additional energy of the rider and horse is applied fairly slowly.
It might work to just give a lance fairly high damage and a poor armor divisor. |
10-28-2013, 01:32 PM | #24 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.
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Reconsidering things a bit, an armed slam on foot should have a damage cap that is greater than thrusting. Properly bracing for impact would mean you're bracing the weapon against your torso (all-out/committed attack) and bracing your foot against the ground at the moment of impact. One hand is normally 0.5xST, but we know for one-handed weapons this should really be 1xST for striking purposes. Your foot isn't going to be properly grappling, but it's still got some good Basic Lift to go off of; we'll say halve its BL, meaning you're dealing with a cap of 1.3xST (before bonuses). Two handed should be around 1.5xST for the arm part, so a total of 1.7xST probably isn't too far off. Considering that for a lance, where you can properly grapple using your legs (for 1.5xST), you're looking at a cap of around 2xST instead. If you can somehow manage using both arms, 2.5xST is your cap instead. Of course, there's also the question of if charging on foot would actually result in more damage. Thinking further, I'm fairly confident I'd do more damage punching somebody than running into them at top speed with my fist. I honestly don't think the small amount of additional momentum I'd get from running while punching is going to make much of a difference (in fact, the inability to use my hip muscles to improve the punch, as well as the general instability I'd be dealing with, would probably make the punch weaker). So, I'll stand by my original calculations (although I still think they're a bit too high) and call what I posted here highly cinematic. EDIT: I'll second Anthony's "high damage, low penetration" for the lance. If we give the lance from my previous example AD (0.5) instead of (2), it doesn't seem quite as far off. Last edited by Varyon; 10-28-2013 at 01:36 PM. |
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10-28-2013, 01:44 PM | #25 |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.
FYI pass limb allows full CP to be maintained with one arm after a two handed grapple. In this case, a ready maneuver should be assumed to be sufficient to provide full ST for this purpose.
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10-28-2013, 02:00 PM | #26 | ||
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.
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10-28-2013, 02:12 PM | #27 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.
Really, a ST-based damage cap is 'maximum damage you can do without hurting yourself'; if you're willing to turn yourself into a projectile your ST doesn't really matter.
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10-28-2013, 03:31 PM | #28 | ||
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.
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Slam is .6d (sprinting), thrust is, using the alternate progression of ST/20, .5d. This means if we use the alternate progression, Slam damage may well need to be decreased. |
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10-29-2013, 03:29 AM | #29 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.
No confusion, the article may be talking about jousting, but our conversation is about couched lances in general. And as I said already I assumed the article was talking about tournament jousting with tournament horses and people who can do it, you know just in case there's still confusion
Also none of these make those term being relative, unless you're saying that everyone in the Joust will have the same ST and all their horse will have the same ST? Quote:
Remember what the assertion is, that the horse's ST (and size etc) is not relevant. If that was true in abstract then you'd riding Arabian 3 year olds for the speed. Only they didn't, because there were limiting factors. So the basic premise that Horse ST is not relevant, is based on the the unspoken assumption that the horse has to be of a certain strength and size to be there in the first place (just as the rider does). I.e When you apply a limiting factor (in this case a lower one) making abstract assertions doesn't work because your automatically narrowing the data set and positively selecting. Its like saying being a line backer isn't a function of strength, but then setting the minimum requirement for line backers at 6'4" 300lbs and an ability to punch press X00lbs, and making you calculations then, Quote:
True, I think slam makes this weird one as I said on my first post this is a slam pretending to be a weapon attack. However on the armour point not all weak points are equal in terms of the force being applied to them. Obviously forces reduce through each transmission (but can also get augmented at stages), so the force at the tip of lance is not the sum of all input forces in the system, but then it is being concentrated at a very small point on the armour. So the force being applied at different break points in the system can differ. They didn't charge any slower with blunted lances after all, they just blunted them. Basically the armour doens't have to be the weakest point in abstract, just relative to the force it's having to withstand. TBH I look at this at a complex system involving horse, rider, lance and armour, The special equipment and skills seem to me to be designed to strengthen the weak points here. You need a proper saddle etc to help transmit horse's force to the rider (or the rider goes flying) You need a reasonably high ST of the rider in order to use a lance that is strong (and therefore heavy) enough to transmit the force without breaking, the riders ST also adds theoretically adds to the system as well. Lance skill helps the rider: A). Position the lance on target, but also importantly for this system B). Work the system as smoothly as possible not interrupting the transmission of force (interruptions will lead to "a break" point and bad things). Not to mention on top of this your riding a horse which not only involves staying on here but maximising it's movement for the system (riding skill as a limiting factor of combat skill). TBH looking at all that there's no way I can see horse ST not being factor. But I can certainly see why Lance is a separate skill, and why great jousters were renowned! Armour we know had to be at it's thickest in the Joust, including not just the thickest plate, but extra pieces, specialised shields (for want of a better term), and sloping! This was against jousting tips as well. Now while tolerances for injury were less in the Joust than In actual combat charges, so obviously safety was maximised in ways probably not possible in combat. But a lot of this protective equipment was not developed during the period when a lot of combat couched charges took place. So unless I'm running GURPS tourney, I'm more interested in combat charges with war lances against combat armour. So to go back to the original point as you say Slam RAW is a very inefficient way to turn force into damage in terms of penetrating armour, but by starting high and reducing a lot you still get a reasonable result. Last edited by Tomsdad; 10-29-2013 at 04:05 AM. |
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10-29-2013, 03:50 AM | #30 | |||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Rescaled Melee Damage and Couched Lances.
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Also in a joust you're doubling the speed because it's "head on". Well actually not quite the hits were at an angle but there would be significant increase in total speed I'd argue as rule of thumb I'd multiple average speed by 1.5 so our ST25 horses at Move 8 will be doing 3d6+3, or 3d6 with my hybrid version) so given a blunt end with 0.5 DR multiplier you should be pretty safe in jousting plate. Quote:
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Which assuming we're talking blunted lances for jousting that's what RAW does. (EDIT: actually you'd have to assume jousting lances were the equivalent of training weapons to get the 0.5 multiplier) Last edited by Tomsdad; 10-29-2013 at 05:50 AM. |
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Tags |
alternate rules, couched lance, deadly spring, melee damage, pyramid 3/33 |
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