Pyramid #3/36: Dungeon Fantasy

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

I think b-dog was just upset that it wasn't a bundled racial/character template like Kromm's. You went unmentioned out of protest. :)

Sorry, I hadn't read that article yet but I read it today and I felt it was useful and could be used for pirate style adventures.

But as far as racial/character templates go I think they could be cool to have. Maybe the reason could be not so much racial as cultural. Maybe because dwarves live in mines underground their culture might be different than humans and so they might tend to have different culturally learned skills than humans. Maybe they would have much more knowledge about underground places and and might have learned how to find veins of precious ores as a normal part of their culture. Their stout powerful bodies might make them tend toward using heavy weapons like axes and hammers and they might tend to have cultural knowledge about being a smith and possible some artificer skills as well. So in this case the "dwarf" template would be the same as a Knight or Wizard template to humans. A dwarf raised in a human environment might have human templates just as a human raised in a dwarf society might have the "dwarf" template. The same kind of template could be used to justify an "elf" template because elves would likely learn from their culture a little bit of magic, some Scout skillls, some swashbuckler skills and some nature skills.

I know that GURPS does not like to have racial templates but I would only say that the reason I like them is not because I think that a certain race has to play a certain racial template because they are genetically programmed to be that kind of racial template but because they have a different culture than humans do and this makes the races seem more unique to me. It is cooler to me to have an "elf" template than a Scout/Wizard/Swashbuckler template with pointy ears.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by b-dog

But as far as racial/character templates go I think they could be cool to have. Maybe the reason could be not so much racial as cultural.
I know that GURPS does not like to have racial templates but I would only say that the reason I like them is not because I think that a certain race has to play a certain racial template because they are genetically programmed to be that kind of racial template but because they have a different culture than humans do and this makes the races seem more unique to me. It is cooler to me to have an "elf" template than a Scout/Wizard/Swashbuckler template with pointy ears.

I see plenty of racial templates so not sure where your getting that GURPS does not like to have racial templates.
However I would not call what your talking about a racial template.
More a racial lens.
To me racial templates are based off genetics or what passes for it and only include certain limited skills becasue of a racial bonus or becasue its a cultural thing and the writer is trying to keep it simple.

A racial/cultural Lens though could be set up for those who grow up in various cultures and include skills and possible modifiers for growing up there.
I doubt there is enough demand to write up a book about them and it would vary from campaign to campaign.
On the other hand I could see it as an option for future templates, though probably an optional rule/addition since the racial template may already exist.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I see plenty of racial templates so not sure where your getting that GURPS does not like to have racial templates.
However I would not call what your talking about a racial template.
More a racial lens.
To me racial templates are based off genetics or what passes for it and only include certain limited skills becasue of a racial bonus or becasue its a cultural thing and the writer is trying to keep it simple.

A racial/cultural Lens though could be set up for those who grow up in various cultures and include skills and possible modifiers for growing up there.
I doubt there is enough demand to write up a book about them and it would vary from campaign to campaign.
On the other hand I could see it as an option for future templates, though probably an optional rule/addition since the racial template may already exist.

I thought that Knights, Wizards and others were templates. OK they are professions then.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by b-dog

I thought that Knights, Wizards and others were templates.

They are. Have you read DF? I know your a regular here but dont follow you enough to know if you have, I know you like Eldritch Horrors and lovecraft.
In DF we have racial templates for quite a few races and professional templates representing various classes. Then we have Lens representing addons to various class templates to represent a multiclass style option.

Lets say I were to build a race from the ground up for DF or something.
Racial template describes their abilities and stuff based on actual race.
Professional or class template describes and makes it simple for a player to pick one of several professions for them.
Now currently a few skills or racial talents are tossed into the racial template to help flesh them out.

But you could easily build a cultural lens and say if you were raised by Elves pick this, humans pick that and dwarves pick that.
Make all the lens say 10 points and just assign appropriate stuff to them.
An elf Swashbuckler would then have the elf racial template, the swashbuckler template and if raised in Elfland the elf lens or in a human city the human lens.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Refplace

They are. Have you read DF? I know your a regular here but dont follow you enough to know if you have, I know you like Eldritch Horrors and lovecraft.
In DF we have racial templates for quite a few races and professional templates representing various classes. Then we have Lens representing addons to various class templates to represent a multiclass style option.

Lets say I were to build a race from the ground up for DF or something.
Racial template describes their abilities and stuff based on actual race.
Professional or class template describes and makes it simple for a player to pick one of several professions for them.
Now currently a few skills or racial talents are tossed into the racial template to help flesh them out.

But you could easily build a cultural lens and say if you were raised by Elves pick this, humans pick that and dwarves pick that.
Make all the lens say 10 points and just assign appropriate stuff to them.
An elf Swashbuckler would then have the elf racial template, the swashbuckler template and if raised in Elfland the elf lens or in a human city the human lens.

I agree but I am just thinking for a quick template that gives the old-school goodness of a quick plug and play just like has been done for the Wizard and Knight. The concept of the fantasy elf is that they are graceful and can use a bow and arrow like the Scout and they fight hand to hand with long swords like the Swashbuckler and they can cast some spells like the Wizard along with some nature skills. So it would be nice to have a template/profession that I could have ready if a player wants to play the old school elf character.

In any case I don't want to argue about this because this is just something that I think would be kewl and you do not.

EDIT: I also want to add that I play old school style and the game world is humanocentric so other races like elves, dwarves, orcs, halflings and the like are alien to human society so I like their professions/templates to be different from humans.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by b-dog

In any case I don't want to argue about this because this is just something that I think would be kewl and you do not.

EDIT: I also want to add that I play old school style and the game world is humanocentric so other races like elves, dwarves, orcs, halflings and the like are alien to human society so I like their professions/templates to be different from humans.

Where did I say racial lens or templates arent cool?
Though it now appears what your talking about is more of a stereotype where an Elf has to be a swashbuckler? That I wouldn't think is very cool.
Even in basic D&D the old boxed set after Greyhawk you picked a race then a class from the allowed list.

Right now you can add some or all of the profession templates to a racial template and that is pretty darn plug and play. Each template offers you some choices so that every pc can be a little different but it is simplified so its just a little math, pick 1 from that list, 2 from that one, etc.
And certain races will be better at certain things becasue of their attributes, talents and other advantages.

What I thought you were getting at is adding flavor to each race or where you grew up. Which while a little more work is something I wouldn't mind.
And it could tweak the classes a bit as well.

However if your thinking every single race has to have a totally different class then that is a LOT more work as you have to build a lot more templates and hope you covered everything.
I do not see the appeal there though, a few niche classes or magic systems, like Elves use Tree magic, Dwarves use Rune magic and humans use college magic but if you were raised by another you could learn that instead I like. But if your worlds are fairly cosmopolitan there will eventually be a lot of cross learning, starting with the easy stuff like fighting skills.

[Steven Marsh]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Though it now appears what your talking about is more of a stereotype where an Elf has to be a swashbuckler? That I wouldn't think is very cool.
Even in basic D&D the old boxed set after Greyhawk you picked a race then a class from the allowed list.

I don't want to speak for b-dog, but I believe he's remembering the old Basic Set (and Expert Set, Companion Set, etc.) where picking a race meant also picking their profession. All PC elves had the same abilities, all PC dwarves had the abilities, etc.

I thought it was an interesting approach (and one of the more distinctive aspects of original Dungeons & Dragons). The biggest oddity I remembered is that all the races were severely limited by level caps... which didn't make them a particularly appealing choice for folks hoping to keep the same heroes all the way to the Master Rules.

EDIT: If someone wanted to recreate this in their own game, they might be able to (say) limit the scout profession to elves only (and just merge the two templates before offering it to the players).

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Where did I say racial lens or templates arent cool?
Though it now appears what your talking about is more of a stereotype where an Elf has to be a swashbuckler? That I wouldn't think is very cool.
Even in basic D&D the old boxed set after Greyhawk you picked a race then a class from the allowed list.

Right now you can add some or all of the profession templates to a racial template and that is pretty darn plug and play. Each template offers you some choices so that every pc can be a little different but it is simplified so its just a little math, pick 1 from that list, 2 from that one, etc.
And certain races will be better at certain things becasue of their attributes, talents and other advantages.

What I thought you were getting at is adding flavor to each race or where you grew up. Which while a little more work is something I wouldn't mind.
And it could tweak the classes a bit as well.

However if your thinking every single race has to have a totally different class then that is a LOT more work as you have to build a lot more templates and hope you covered everything.
I do not see the appeal there though, a few niche classes or magic systems, like Elves use Tree magic, Dwarves use Rune magic and humans use college magic but if you were raised by another you could learn that instead I like. But if your worlds are fairly cosmopolitan there will eventually be a lot of cross learning, starting with the easy stuff like fighting skills.

Yes, I would like to see a lot of different racial templates. Halflings would have some fighting ability and a lot of stealth, gnomes would have some fighting ability and a lot of craft and artificer skills. Some of the monster races like ogres, trolls and minotaurs could have more skill related to fighting and lurking in dungeon. These would just be archetypes and a player could choose to be an ogre Scholar or a gnome could be a Barbarian if he desired. But the archetype racial template would be useful if the player wants to play the stereotypical elf, dwarf or halfling.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Steven Marsh

I don't want to speak for b-dog, but I believe he's remembering the old Basic Set (and Expert Set, Companion Set, etc.) where picking a race meant also picking their profession. All PC elves had the same abilities, all PC dwarves had the abilities, etc.

I thought it was an interesting approach (and one of the more distinctive aspects of original Dungeons & Dragons). The biggest oddity I remembered is that all the races were severely limited by level caps... which didn't make them a particularly appealing choice for folks hoping to keep the same heroes all the way to the Master Rules.

EDIT: If someone wanted to recreate this in their own game, they might be able to (say) limit the scout profession to elves only (and just merge the two templates before offering it to the players).

I just think that the race as class sort of made the race seem unique and different from humans. Maybe with GURPS there could be an archetype elf template where they have some wizard abilities, some bow and arrow skills, long sword skill and nature skills. This archetype template could be selected by players playing elves but players playing elves could also be Clerics, Knights, Thieves etc. if they wanted to. But the archetype elf template could give you the old school elf if you wanted to play that.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Steven Marsh

I don't want to speak for b-dog, but I believe he's remembering the old Basic Set (and Expert Set, Companion Set, etc.) where picking a race meant also picking their profession. All PC elves had the same abilities, all PC dwarves had the abilities, etc.

Ah. I was in the military when those came out so missed them, when I cam back I had already been playing YSgarth and wasn't about to go back.
Original D&D then AD&D had race and then class with level caps to "balance" them out. The Basic, Expert and Master sets then all the later versions they have gone though never appealed to me.
Still if anyone wants to create special class templates by race I dont see anything stopping them. However I dont see it as a big market either so wont likely many buyers, including me.
I play GURPS for the flexibility among other things and would feel railroaded the other way as a PC and too much complexity for me as GM.