The Resurrection Lite Reign of Terror

[jeff_wilson]

Belatedly trying to avoid threadjacking:

Originally Posted by Bruno

It's the part about the already dead person sacrifice advantages, as per the sacrifice magic system, to power a magical spell.

Which is basically totally unconnected to what Resurrection Lite is.

The problem is, there's nothing to sacrifice and no one to make the sacrifice. The player and character have already gambled on going along without benefit of a certain advantage that turned out to be necessary, and lost. Letting them buy it retroactively fubars the basis that gives the reasonable perception of value to advantages and to character points themselves. It arguably devalues survival-oriented decision making and any number of other player and PC virtues the way printing more fiat currency devalues existing savings and debts.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Those are your personal objections, not Kromms, and definitely have nothing to do with that thread.

Yes they are, which is why I described them as issues other than the one I was thinking of in re Kromm.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Where is Time Spanning from, anyways? I'm having a devil of a time finding it again.

Powers, p.109.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Well, my chosen build for a Resurrection power has always been a time spanning, malediction, permanent beneficial affliction granting an extra life. You take the time spanning time penalties to the moment of death, and give them a permanent Extra Life at that moment. Since Extra Life mentions that there might be a delay between death and return to life, well, it's RAW. Of course, the target must pay the points for the extra life, or take appropriate disadvantages. Since it's a beneficial affliction, with malediction, the target can (and will) void his roll to resist.

I can see Permanent +150% as necessary for a blessing that takes effect after an indefinite period, but then Extra Life does its thing and it's gone. Having Permanent +300% on it implies it has to hang around after the fact keeping them animated and if something were to suppress it, they'd fall over dead again.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Belatedly trying to avoid threadjacking:



The problem is, there's nothing to sacrifice and no one to make the sacrifice. The player and character have already gambled on going along without benefit of a certain advantage that turned out to be necessary, and lost. Letting them buy it retroactively fubars the basis that gives the reasonable perception of value to advantages and to character points themselves. It arguably devalues survival-oriented decision making and any number of other player and PC virtues the way printing more fiat currency devalues existing savings and debts.

That's why I would require Time Spanning, in my games, to retroactively change the past so the individual actually HAD extra life when he or she died.

Also, remember that the capability to do this isn't cheap, so well, the character who died gambled on not purchasing the advantage right now, and instead count on the resurrecter having some means of returning him to life. Not much different on low IQ melee brutes counting on the party for brainy stuff. while they go "Og Smash!" on their foes.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

I can see Permanent +150% as necessary for a blessing that takes effect after an indefinite period, but then Extra Life does its thing and it's gone. Having Permanent +300% on it implies it has to hang around after the fact keeping them animated and if something were to suppress it, they'd fall over dead again.

Well, my original build gave permanent +150% with the following terminal condition: Until the moment this ability was used. You can't proactively use it to give other people extra lives.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Belatedly trying to avoid threadjacking:
The problem is, there's nothing to sacrifice and no one to make the sacrifice.

Yes, that would be Kromms objection. As mentioned - it has nothing to do with Affliction - Extra Life, which is not based on Sacrifice Magic.

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

The player and character have already gambled on going along without benefit of a certain advantage that turned out to be necessary, and lost. Letting them buy it retroactively fubars the basis that gives the reasonable perception of value to advantages and to character points themselves. It arguably devalues survival-oriented decision making and any number of other player and PC virtues the way printing more fiat currency devalues existing savings and debts.

This isn't an argument against the build, it's an argument against letting PCs ever be Resurrected by any means if they didn't buy Extra Life or Unkillable.

Any sort of resurrection involves these issues. (And to a lesser extent, any sort of way to gain the benefit of traits that were "theoretically" available only at character creation)

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Yes, that would be Kromms objection. As mentioned - it has nothing to do with Affliction - Extra Life, which is not based on Sacrifice Magic.

Then why is there an identical cp cost? I don't see the separation, and despite couching it in sacrifice and judgement metaphors, it was clear to me we were primarily discussing which sources of energy would be valid under the game rules, with narrative considerations flexing to fit.

Originally Posted by Bruno

This isn't an argument against the build, it's an argument against letting PCs ever be Resurrected by any means if they didn't buy Extra Life or Unkillable.

Any sort of resurrection involves these issues. (And to a lesser extent, any sort of way to gain the benefit of traits that were "theoretically" available only at character creation)

No to the first, yes to the second; the other methods of restoring a PC to life don't devalue the characater currency because they are almost always harder to arrange than making a new character and advancing him to the previous level.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Then why is there an identical cp cost? I don't see the separation, and despite couching it in sacrifice and judgement metaphors, it was clear to me we were primarily discussing which sources of energy would be valid under the game rules, with narrative considerations flexing to fit.

Sorry, what?

You linked to a thread, saying Kromm says the Affliction (Extra Life) build was Wrong. When I went to the thread, I saw Kromm talking about Sacrifice Magic, not Affliction (Extra Life).

You're still talking about sacrifice magic and sources of energy for the Resurrection spell.

Which don't have anything to do with Affliction (Extra Life), so I remain extremely confused.

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

No to the first, yes to the second

First and second what? I can't follow this. :/

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

the other methods of restoring a PC to life don't devalue the characater currency because they are almost always harder to arrange than making a new character and advancing him to the previous level.

One is an in game action, the other is an out of game action. These are not compatible actions or exchangeable actions.

Never mind that I usually have five or six backup PCs ready to go so it most certainly is MORE effort to get someone to find my corpse and Afflict me back to life than it is for me to just hand the GM a new character sheet.

Would you consider it more acceptable if it also had Costs 300 FP and Immediate Preparation Required (10 hrs) on it?

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

The player and character have already gambled on going along without benefit of a certain advantage that turned out to be necessary, and lost. Letting them buy it retroactively fubars the basis that gives the reasonable perception of value to advantages and to character points themselves. It arguably devalues survival-oriented decision making and any number of other player and PC virtues the way printing more fiat currency devalues existing savings and debts.

I'm not seeing the problem?

CP is used during character creation, for a limited selection of available character advancement methods and a number of in-play manipulations of the dice mechanics and game-world details. Typically only by player characters at that. Outside of those circumstances, CP is meaningless and without value by RAW. You appear to be perceiving greater value than the game itself does.

We have published and official RAW (in Monster Hunters) allowing players to purchase Extra Life for their characters after their characters death already. We have published and official RAW (in Divine Favor) allowing other characters to grant Extra Life to an already-dead character.

You appear to disagree with RAW. May I suggest you invest in some house rules to cover the areas where you think RAW is incorrect?

[PK]

I'd just like to note that there's no miracle called "Resurrection Lite" in Divine Favor. I think the miracle y'all are referring to is "Raise Dead," which appears in a box that I playfully entitled "Resurrection Lite."

(That's my only comment for this thread, as I must confess it managed to lose me from the very first post, and became only murkier as I read on. Sorry.)

[starslayer]

Jeff do you think you could link the thread instead of a no-context quote from bruno so that we might have some idea what's going on to contribute.

Side note however:
Based on what I am seeing you are complaining that it is not 'fair' for a PC to have an ability to grant extra lives to dead PCs easily as a means of resurrecting them.

You feel this is because:
->It is effectively removing the value of having selected extra-life in the first place, devaluing the advantage.
->It lacks the complexity of existing resurrection techniques
->Other reasons seeming to relate to the specific build of 'grant extra life for resurrection'
->Other reasons relating to a Kromm post on this

Now, I don't know about those last two because they seem to be from another thread; but I do know about the first two.

I agree with other posters so far that it is entirely common for one PC to provide the benefits of there abilities to the other PCs, effectively providing the PCs with 'things they did not buy' it's part of the party dynamic. If one member of the party has high DR, then the entire party benefits from a tank- despite having not each individually paid for DR. If one member of the party has archery 32, then the entire party benefits from extremely long ranged eyeshots. If one member of the party has healing spells/powers then the whole party now behaves as if they had regeneration. That's how party dynamics work- so if one party member can raise the dead, then the whole party behaves like they have unkillable. In all cases of course there is the effective limitation of 'only when we are with bob'.

Now you can go into the argument that often comes up about a PC who has wealth. If that PC 'shares equally' then the other PCs 'get points for free', and the advantage becomes effectively wasted points for the person who took it because everyone else benefits- but much like how those threads ultimately break down, it comes to this; guy with wealth buys cool stuff for his allies because this directly benefits him, he buys cool fancy rooms for his allies because he is a good buddy; he does not handle all of there investments and paperwork for free so that they can grow there own personal fortunes however- he has his own money to manage, and can charge his friends a reasonable fee for personal financial management; end result wealthy guy makes an important non-combat contribution, and has much fancier gear in combat as campaign goes on. Wealth dude provides a definite party benefit (better rooms, better gear, discount on financial planning) AND provides another body in combat (even if less competent then someone who does not ALSO provide better rooms, better gear, and a discount on financial planning)

Similarly resurrection dude is not going to be pulling much weight in combat in exchange for being able to revive party members, but there is a VERY genuine reason for them to keep resurrection dude alive, on board, and happy- he provides a party benefit and while not as good as a focused individual is still another body in a fight.