Naginata and Quartestaff question

[Sorenant]

First off, I want to question about Naginata's nature and stat line. Are Naginatas really as tip heavy as the other polearms like Dueling Halberd and Pollaxes? I've going through some pictures of actual Naginatas and their blade seems rather slim and not very heavy looking. Watching videos (another) seems like they are way easier to handle than, say, Poleaxes. Do their slashing mode really deserve the Parry U status?

Another question is about Quarterstaff and Jo being used as Two-Handed Sword. Per Low Tech Companion 2, a weapon without hilt has -1 to its parry score. Those two weapons obviously doesn't have hilts, so why are their parry as Two-Handed Sword normal 0?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

Are Naginatas really as tip heavy as the other polearms like Dueling Halberd and Pollaxes?

Yes. I trained in naginata and dueling glaive, they are essentially the same thing, difference being the 'standard style' for using a nag is to hold it closer to the butt (a lot of attacks use the full reach of the polearm), where with a dueling glaive you treat it almost as a 'point' heavy quarterstaff, almost. If you choke up on the nag (like the people in both of those videos were doing) you can make cutting attacks at reach 1, but not with as much force (which brings it closer inline with french and german dueling glaive styles). I'd call it a 'defensive grip', as it also makes parrying easier. It's also possible to make Defensive Attack Maneuvers (per Martial Arts pg 100) and both attack and parry despite the weapon being unbalanced.



Also, keep in mind your second video looks more like an exhibition than a match, so take any fluidity of moves there with a grain of salt.

And the halberd guys didn't look like they were as confident, and were wearing what looked like ill fitted armor. So also take their clumsier moves for they are, clumsier.

[Steve Jackson]

Whoa! An actual reality check for polearm use!

Thank you!

[evileeyore]

Happy to help.

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Yes. I trained in naginata and dueling glaive, they are essentially the same thing, difference being the 'standard style' for using a nag is to hold it closer to the butt

Thanks for the reply but I must admit I'm still in the dark. I asked the same question over Discord and someone who also trained with Naginatas said it is not as heavy. Could the material used explain the difference, maybe the density of the wood shaft?
Also regarding the use of it, you make it sounds like Two-Handed Sword skill is the one used by default with the polearm skill being used to choke it to attack at reach 1, is it correct?

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Also, keep in mind your second video looks more like an exhibition than a match, so take any fluidity of moves there with a grain of salt.

Thanks for the tip. I knew it was an exhibition and didn't know how much I should have trusted but the fluidity of the movement got me fooled.

[Railstar]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

Also regarding the use of it, you make it sounds like Two-Handed Sword skill is the one used by default with the polearm skill being used to choke it to attack at reach 1, is it correct?

While I'm not going to go into reality checking, I will say this is very consistent with my experience of designing samurai characters in GURPS.

With Two-Handed Sword skill, a samurai can use a katana, nodachi, bo staff, naginata and tetsubo/kanabo. So a samurai can be better with all those weapons by improving one skill, rather than trying to take each separate skill individually (Polearm for naginata, Staff for bo, and Two-Handed Axe/Mace for tetsubo).

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

Thanks for the reply but I must admit I'm still in the dark. I asked the same question over Discord and someone who also trained with Naginatas said it is not as heavy. Could the material used explain the difference, maybe the density of the wood shaft?

Sure there will be differences, but really, they are minimal. The dueling glaive and naginata I used were virtually identical aside from the nag having a longer and curved blade. The balances were slightly different as the glaive was a shorter, broader blade, but the weights were very close, if not identical.

I can't speak for vulges, bill hooks, guisarems, glaive-guisarme-vulge-ranseurs, bohemian earspoons, etc...

Also regarding the use of it, you make it sounds like Two-Handed Sword skill is the one used by default with the polearm skill being used to choke it to attack at reach 1, is it correct?

Not a bit. Look at the way she's holding it in the exhibition video (I incorrectly said 'second' video above, I meant first video), she has split the shaft into 'three equal parts', behind her rear hand, between her hands, and in front of her lead hand. You would never be able to do this with a two-handed sword, there isn't enough hilt!

(Even if she were to go further to the butt with her hands, occupyig the last 2/5ths with her hands, they'd still be just as far apart.)

If she were holding her hands closer to the butt and slightly closer together (a space not much greater than the distance from her elbow to her wrist), then I'd say she was using a nodachi style. But her movements and hand work are classic defensive naginata... also very much classic 'front-heavy' quarterstaff (where you place 2/5ths of the staff in front of you, occupy the 'middle' 2/5ths with your hands and body, and trail the last 1/5th 'behind' you for quick sweeps, reverse jabs, rising outside parries, etc - much as she is doing in the video).


Which isn't to say that Railstars' comment is wrong, a samurai can easily get by with just a single weapon skill, but for best usage, most won't.

In this case I'd call the method she's employing a "Defensive Attack" by GURPS Martial Arts' standards and not worry that she's getting to make swing attacks at Reach 1.

Thanks for the tip. I knew it was an exhibition and didn't know how much I should have trusted but the fluidity of the movement got me fooled.

Having watched it three more times, it's probably an exhibition match (in other words, unscripted, but they may have practiced with each other sparing in this 'no-touch' manner). They are both practiced fighters, and they have excellent control.

[Bobcloclimar]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Having watched it three more times, it's probably an exhibition match (in other words, unscripted, but they may have practiced with each other sparing in this 'no-touch' manner). They are both practiced fighters, and they have excellent control.

(longtime lurker, but as a former katori student I had to chime in :) )

It's completely scripted. Katori is based on partnered forms, and doesn't involve sparring at all. You can see a slightly more modern take on these two forms at the beginning of this video - it's the same sequence of moves (albeit minus the cool lightsaber SFX). In general, we'd only hold the naginata as depicted here, which gives flexibility of engagement distance and defense - it was fairly easy to deliver a strike and still be able to defend oneself (at a minimum, there was always the body-level haft for blocking, not parrying, an attack to the torso). Defensively, it might be a tad slower at recovering from a strike as a sword, but not appreciably so. That being said, as you might be able to see from the video, the strikes are swift strokes with not a lot of power behind them (they're specifically targeted at unarmored areas on the body), so modeling it as always making Defensive Attacks may be reasonable.

I've no HEMA experience, so I couldn't say how the handling was relative to European polearms. Having a heavier head would substantially affect the balance and make it harder to parry with the head after an attack, but the haft can still be used.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Bobcloclimar

It's completely scripted.

Thanks!

That was my suspicion, but all my training was in a Wah Lum temple and wasn't what I'd call particularly orthodox†.


† I mean it was Naginatajustu, but no particular style and we never performed any competitions.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

Thanks for the reply but I must admit I'm still in the dark. I asked the same question over Discord and someone who also trained with Naginatas said it is not as heavy. Could the material used explain the difference, maybe the density of the wood shaft?

Not so much a martial artist as a former armorer, but I'll point out that weights, lengths, etc. for historical martial arts weapons aren't exactly standardized. Certainly, that was seldom the case historically (except for well-organized armies like the Romans or certain Chinese forces).

Thickness, density, and length of shaft might account for some of the difference in mass, but the real kicker is going to be blade length, width, and thickness.

A naginata which is basically a "tanto on a stick" is going to behave differently from a naginata or equivalent Chinese weapon which is more reminiscent of a "machete on a stick" or even a "wakizashi on a stick."