Feint and All-out attack questions

[chris1982]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Yes. There are only a few good uses:...

These are good ones of course. But there are some others as well
- When wearing enough armor that the enemy can't hope to penetrate reliably
- When the enemy has only 1 good defense (e.g. 1 parry, no shield, dodge score sucks) and you can down him with one hit

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by chris1982

When wearing enough armor that the enemy can't hope to penetrate reliably

Well, that's one that my players don't rely on any more. ;) Normally, the bad guys have enough skill to tack on Deceptive Attack for -3 or -4 to defense (-6 to -8 to skill), which is to say skill 16-18 or thereabouts. They need this to have a chance to hit, because the PCs' defenses are so high. However, if a PC drops his guard . . . the -8 becomes a shot at chinks in armor. Plus even a fighter in the heaviest armor can be grappled, and no defense means not being able to avoid the grapple. Many grapple follow-ups don't respect DR.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Well, that's one that my players don't rely on any more. ;) Normally, the bad guys have enough skill to tack on Deceptive Attack for -3 or -4 to defense (-6 to -8 to skill), which is to say skill 16-18 or thereabouts. They need this to have a chance to hit, because the PCs' defenses are so high. However, if a PC drops his guard . . . the -8 becomes a shot at chinks in armor. Plus even a fighter in the heaviest armor can be grappled, and no defense means not being able to avoid the grapple. Many grapple follow-ups don't respect DR.

Judo Throw trats DR as Flexible (as per collision rules), right?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Judo Throw trats DR as Flexible (as per collision rules), right?

A normal Judo Throw is a full-body impact, and for rules purposes does no damage. If it ends up chucking somebody over a ledge or whatever, so that falling damage matters, then you're right. A Judo Throw for damage is very specifically a point impact – you're guaranteeing that the initial landing is on a single, small point, which is why there's a skill penalty – and treated as a punch, not as a collision or a fall.

But try an All-Out Attack (Double) in retaliation. Use the first attack to make a grapple on the torso of the enemy who just did his own All-Out Attack; as he did an AOA, he is unable to defend. Turn the second attack into a Rapid Strike for a takedown and then a pin, as is entirely legal; see p. 128 of Martial Arts. Normally the -6 would hose you, but it isn't much of a deal-breaker on a takedown or a pin owing to these things being Quick Contests against which an enemy who did an AOA gets no resistance (p. 114). All you have to do is not botch your own rolls; use Flurry of Blows (p. 131) if you need to be sure.

Alternatively, use the first attack for a Sweep to knock down the enemy who just did his own All-Out Attack; again, he's unable to defend and again, he doesn't get to resist because that's considered a defense. Once he's down, use the second attack for a Rapid Strike, as before, but this time for a torso grapple and a pin.

Or as yet another option, use the first attack for a torso grapple and the second for a Rapid Strike involving a Judo Throw and, whilst retaining your grapple (p. 75) and rolling with your enemy (p. 98), a pin.

The point being that if you AOA, a foe with a grappling skill in the 16+ range can take you from standing to flat and pinned within a second. And while he just did an AOA of his own, you can't do much to capitalize on it. He suffers no penalty to keep you from breaking free (p. 114). Even if he's a mook, and you're much stronger and break free anyway, you waste a turn on that and two more turns standing up, during which time other mooks can capitalize on your -2 or -3 to defend and inability to retreat to keep knocking you over. In general, somebody with big enough armor to bounce mooks is better off not going All-Out unless he's certain that the mooks can't wrestle.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Kromm

But try an All-Out Attack (Double) in retaliation. Use the first attack to make a grapple on the torso of the enemy who just did his own All-Out Attack; as he did an AOA, he is unable to defend. Turn the second attack into a Rapid Strike for a takedown and then a pin, as is entirely legal; see p. 128 of Martial Arts. Normally the -6 would hose you, but it isn't much of a deal-breaker on a takedown or a pin owing to these things being Quick Contests against which an enemy who did an AOA gets no resistance (p. 114). All you have to do is not botch your own rolls; use Flurry of Blows (p. 131) if you need to be sure.

Ok, I think I've missed something, but this came up just last week so it's fresh in my mind - you can't combine Flurry of Blows with All Out Attack, only Attack. In fact, you can't use any of the extra effort options from the Basic Set with All Out Attack or Move And Attack, only with Attack (not sure how they combine with Committed Attack).

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Ok, I think I've missed something, but this came up just last week so it's fresh in my mind - you can't combine Flurry of Blows with All Out Attack, only Attack. In fact, you can't use any of the extra effort options from the Basic Set with All Out Attack or Move And Attack, only with Attack (not sure how they combine with Committed Attack).

Martial Arts gives Flurry of Blows a specific exception; see p. 131. It's the one extra effort option that you can use with AOA.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Martial Arts gives Flurry of Blows a specific exception; see p. 131. It's the one extra effort option that you can use with AOA.

Ah-HA! Cool, I'll keep that in mind.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Well, that's one that my players don't rely on any more. ;) Normally, the bad guys have enough skill to tack on Deceptive Attack for -3 or -4 to defense (-6 to -8 to skill), which is to say skill 16-18 or thereabouts. They need this to have a chance to hit, because the PCs' defenses are so high. However, if a PC drops his guard . . . the -8 becomes a shot at chinks in armor. Plus even a fighter in the heaviest armor can be grappled, and no defense means not being able to avoid the grapple. Many grapple follow-ups don't respect DR.

It could also be an opportune time for a Telegraphic (possibly AoA as well) stab to the eye.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

Could not find "rolling" on 98, does it refer to the first option "dive forward to go from standing"?

I suspect he was referring to the Sacrifice Throw, from page 78.

Originally Posted by corwyn

It could also be an opportune time for a Telegraphic (possibly AoA as well) stab to the eye.

Telegraphic Attack was something of a death knell to All Out Attack, yeah. Combat Posture from my blog stemmed from an attempt to make All Out Attack a better option at higher skill levels, but the Telegraphic Attack imbalance still makes it a pretty darn risky move. An option to potentially resolve it would be to double the bonus for All Out Attack, letting you "cash in" the +2 to defenses you'd normally be getting for foes using Telegraphic Attack on you for a further bonus (in the Combat Posture system, this is +4 MP). Personally, I'd be tempted to to with only +2 MP (+2 to hit, or +1 to damage), as you're pre-emptively using a bonus that you might not even get (if nobody attacks you, which is the ideal situation if you use All Out Attack).