Skull DR type

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I suspect that might be a low damage roll causing less injury than needed for a death check and not DR 2 completely stopping all damage, causing 0 injury and not even drawing blood.

You already observed, in the very first reply to this thread, that non-penetrating hits to the skull should be able to draw blood.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

You already observed, in the very first reply to this thread, that non-penetrating hits to the skull should be able to draw blood.

Indeed, but it's not RAW in so far as I know and I've always found the issue of skull DR somewhat troublesome. Especially in cyberpunk or similar genres, where the skull may incorporate armour that makes penetrating it with knives or pistol bullets impractical, but this doesn't make the character immune from all trauma on head hits.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I thought that skulls sometimes did stop pistol bullets. Isn't there a risk, if you try to kill yourself by holding the gun up to your head, that you may fail to penetrate the skull and instead shoot your face off?

I meant to say, "reliably stop medium caliber pistol bullets". I should take more careful when posting tired.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Skulls can't stop full sized pistol bullets that DR 3 would usually do. Even DR 2 is pushing it.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I meant to say, "reliably stop medium caliber pistol bullets". I should take more careful when posting tired.

How are you defining DR3 reliably stops medium caliber pistol bullets here?

If by reliably stop you mean on average stop that would mean pistol calibers who's average penetration is 3?

Having a quick look in the lists at HT in GURPS terms I can only find:

.22 Short at 1d-1 (avg 2.5) which DR3 will stop 66% of the time which definitely counts as average.

and more fringe

.25 ACP at 1d (avg 3.5) which DR3 will stop 50%


(there may be few more in the text boxes of different guns, and I think if you go to adventure guns there's a few more as well)

I do agree that lower power rounds are certainly more susceptible to being stopped by DR 3 (and even DR2 skulls come to that) than more powerful rounds though!


If you are assuming expanding rounds than a few more calibers fall into this category.

Expanding rounds are weird in GURPs when it comes to skull hits, because they get the 0.5 AD disadvantage but not the injury mod advantage!

[Flyndaran]

Wow. I rephrase to be clearer and still don't make myself clear.
I'll try one more time.

Skulls can't reliably stop medium caliber pistol bullets that DR 3 would usually do. Even DR 2 is pushing it.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Wow. I rephrase to be clearer and still don't make myself clear.
I'll try one more time.

Skulls can't reliably stop medium caliber pistol bullets that DR 3 would usually do. Even DR 2 is pushing it.

Well since DR3 is more than DR2 one would expect it in abstract to be able to do stuff that DR 2 can't do?

But either way there's really not many pistol caliber rounds that either DR3 or DR2 will reliably stop.

I think I'm still missunderstanding your point :-(!

So to ask a question that might help me understand:

Which medium caliber pistol bullets does DR3 reliably stop that DR2 skulls don't?


(I assume you were making this point initially in response to the suggestion that the skull should be DR3 in same situations?)

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Well since DR3 is more than DR2 one would expect it in abstract to be able to do stuff that DR 2 can't do?

But either way there's really not many pistol caliber rounds that either DR3 or DR2 will reliably stop.

I think I'm still missunderstanding your point :-(!

So to ask a question that might help me do so:

Which medium caliber pistol bullets does DR3 reliably stop that DR2 skulls don't?


(I assume you were making this point initially in response to the suggestion that the skull should be DR3 in same situations?)

Now I wonder what to conclude, by the rules I get that you dont "hurt yourself" when punching/kicking to the skull, but I can appreciate some discordance in this thread... I have seen people punch at the skull with aparently zero harm to their fist, but I have also seen people getting hurt while doing so, mostly and apparemtly depending on their "punching skill" :s

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Now I wonder what to conclude, by the rules I get that you dont "hurt yourself" when punching/kicking to the skull, but I can appreciate some discordance in this thread... I have seen people punch at the skull with aparently zero harm to their fist, but I have also seen people getting hurt while doing so, mostly and apparemtly depending on their "punching skill" :s

Like I said (either in this thread or the other) probably a good place for a house rule for those for whom this will add something to their game.

So the threshold for hurting yourself is 5pts of damage against DR3+

The problem is IME the weak are also prone to hurt themselves hitting skulls (it's a factor of the strength of the hand and wrist not just the damage being done) but by the current rules someone punching at ST8 will never risk hurting themselves even if they're punching an iron block with AoA(Stong)

and proper training can also mitigate the chances to an extent (you learn how to punch safely)

The problem here is you currently have two different variables affecting when this issue allies DR and damage done

[JazzJedi]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Skulls can't stop full sized pistol bullets that DR 3 would usually do. Even DR 2 is pushing it.

The spine has DR 3 according to the RAW, but it is full of hollows and arguably not as strong as the front of the skull. As for stopping pistol rounds, I think that a point-blank shot from a pistol at a flat angle counts as an automatic critical hit that should do double damage at the least (or even triple damage, as the critical head table allows). An "average" damage shot means from a distance and less than optimal angle for penetration, hence the variable damage.

[Tomsdad]

To be honest once you start getting into DR of various bones you start to open a can of worms.

Some ribs are thicker than some area's of the skull.

And the spine is DR3, well which part. Lumbar vertebra are thicker and heavier than Thoracic vertebrae which are thicker and heavier than cervical vertebrae. And that's before you compare them to the skull

As pointed out the skull in not of a uniform thickness

Arms and legs have the same HP as each other due to roughly equal mass? Not really.

Not all vitals are equally "vital", (and the negative effects of damage to them differ) etc, etc

Ultimately we're not playing GURPS: Anatomy so how much detail we want to go into is a matter of personal taste.


On the skull thing, chinks and weak spot rules might work (and would be easier to hit from the back which is probably about right)