Reliable Luck

[dataweaver]

From the Luck thread:

Originally Posted by Kax

And Luck has none, yes. It happens when you want, no roll, and that activation allows you to make rolls afterwards on whatever you activate it on.

So Reliable doesn't count twice; there's no activation roll (unless you give it one) and it also doesn't add to the ability you just acticated Luck on.

Reliable would count on Luck only if you gave it an activation roll and would then only count for that activation roll.

Talent, being more than reliability, would add to the Luck result rolls if that Luck had an appropriate Power Modifier.

Here's the “Reliable” Enhancement:

Your ability usually works as intended. Perhaps you have extensive experience or natural aptitude with it, or maybe it's just easy to use. Whatever the reason, you get a bonus on all rolls to use it.

That's the summary of what the Enhancement is. But what does it mean? That's where the very next part comes in:

This works exactly like Talent, and can't affect anything that Talent wouldn't affect. It's cumulative with Talent, where applicable.

There seems to be a common misconception that Reliable is an Enhancement counterpart to Unreliable, which makes perfect sense when you consider their names. But GURPS has a history of using misleading names (see Honesty, which would be more accurate if it was called Law-Abiding), and Reliable is another case of this. “Reliable” actually has nothing to do with activation rolls, a point that I'll get to shortly. What Reliable does is spelled out very clearly in the above text: it acts like a Talent where that single Advantage is concerned. What it can do is defined by what a Talent can do when applied to the Advantage in question: it can do everything the Talent can do (with one exception, which I'll get to shortly), and can't do anything that the Talent can't do. As for the exception, it's mentioned in the third and final part of the write-up:

Reliable is handy for advantages that routinely suffer large penalties (e.g., the -8 to use Precognition actively). It isn't available for ranged attacks — use Accurate (p.B102) for those. Reliable costs +5% per +1 bonus, up to a maximum of +10.

So the one thing that Reliable can't do that a Talent can is to add to ranged attacks. Otherwise, it's a one-trait Talent.

Note that when I say “Talent”, I mean “Power Talent”. Power-Ups 3: Talents makes a point to distinguish between the two, effectively warning against conflating them:

The only deliberate omission [in this supplement] is power Talents (see p. B255 and GURPS Powers). While these are related to the traits defined on pp.B89–91 in the sense that both grant bonuses to success rolls (whence the similarity in name), they aren't identical. Power Talents affect the use of advantages, not skills.

So, when does a Talent apply? That's described in Powers on page 158, under “The Role of Talent”. I won't quote the whole section because it takes up the better part of a page; but here are some highlights:

Talent with a power acts as a bonus to all success rolls against attributes, secondary characteristics, or skills to use the power's abilities. This include rolls to activate, attack with, control, or defend with these abilities. This doesn't include damage rolls, reaction rolls …, appearance rolls for Associated NPCs bought as abilities, rolls required by limitations, or rolls made by the ability's target.

Some abilities, especially passive ones, rarely call for success rolls. The GM should try to make Talent useful with these, at least occasionally — most often by giving a bonus to an associated skill. If the ability would never require a roll, it's acceptable to break the rules and apply another kind of bonus. Some suggestions:

:

• Reality-altering abilities: Each use of an ability that produces a direct change in reality gets a bonus equal to Talent on the first die roll it influences. Examples: Luck, Serendipity, and Super Luck.

:

See the Powering Up entries in Chapter 2 for many specific suggestions. Extra Effort (p.160), Defending with Powers (p.167), Talent as Resistance (p.169), and Stunts (p.170) describe other situations where Talent gives a bonus.

And on p.59, in the Powering Up entry for Luck that the above references, we have this:

Talent gives a bonus to any die roll influence by Luck — but only if that use of Luck is declared in advance.

And there you have it: that's what Talent (and, by extension, Reliable) does for Luck. You may choose to house-rule it to work differently; but be aware that it would be a house rule. And that goes beyond what I've been talking about: I've been focusing on getting to the truth of what the rules actually say, not what people think they say or want them to say. If you think that the actual rule is broken, that's a separate issue — and on that issue, I'd probably agree with you, if only because Reliable is usually so cheap. (At a minimum, I'd treat it as a Perk equivalent of Talent; and even that might be too cheap.)

[dataweaver]

For completeness sake, let me also address this:

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Exactly. It's the dive off the cliff that leads to IQ +1 (Reliable +10, +50%) [30].

This is not a valid build, because Talent (and by extension Reliable) cannot be applied directly to an Attribute, per Powers p.13, Attributes as Abilities:

Talent doesn't affect these bonuses at all. A “Wisdom of Horus” power might offer IQ+10 as one of its abilities, and give +10 to IQ and IQ-based skills when it works, but the Wisdom of Horus Talent would give no further bonus.

The section that that's from also says that you can only include something like an IQ bonus in a power of it has some sort of limitation that genuinely limits its utility, such as Costs Fatigue, Limited Use, Trigger, or being subject to countermeasures, which the above arguably doesn't have as written. But even if it did, Reliable wouldn't add to the IQ bonus.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

There seems to be a common misconception that Reliable is an Enhancement counterpart to Unreliable, which makes perfect sense when you consider their names.

Maybe, but that's not my disagreement with the expansion of Reliable under the Powers expansion.

Note, prior to Powers, Reliable appears exactly once and does exactly one thing: It makes Warp more Reliable.

With Powers we now get crazy builds like Innate Attack (Melee C-1, -20%; Reliable +10, +50%).

That's why a number of us reject the interpretation from Powers.

Some abilities, especially passive ones, rarely call for success rolls. The GM should try to make Talent useful with these, at least occasionally — most often by giving a bonus to an associated skill.

2 things. 1 - That's an entirely optional chapter that suggestion is drawn from. 2 - Kromm has outright stated that sometimes Power Talents are the UBC for access to further powers and thus you Do Not Add It To Things Not Directly Spelled Out As Benefiting From It.

#2 up there can mean having a useless Power Talent.

If you think that the actual rule is broken, that's a separate issue

That's the issue I've been harping on.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

For completeness sake, let me also address this:

This is not a valid build, because Talent (and by extension Reliable) cannot be applied directly to an Attribute, per Powers p.13, Attributes as Abilities:

Accept when it can as per pg 158:

Talent with a power acts as a bonus to all success rolls against attributes, secondary characteristics, or skills to use the power’s abilities.

The section that that's from also says that you can only include something like an IQ bonus in a power...

I call attention to the fact that "shouldn't" doesn't mean "can't" and "appropriate" doesn't mean "only way allowed".

What this sidebar is calling attention to is that by doing this (making an Attribute Bonus into a Power) one often get's Attributes cheaper and that stacking Talent on there as well would be broken.


Also, it doesn't have to be built as a 'Power'. IQ 10 (Reliable +10, +50%) [100] sure sounds kosher* to me... (note the lack of a "+" in front of the 10)



* As kosher as Visualization (Reduced Time, +140%; Reliable +10, +50%; Selectivity, +10%) [30].

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Maybe, but that's not my disagreement with the expansion of Reliable under the Powers expansion.

Note, prior to Powers, Reliable appears exactly once and does exactly one thing: It makes Warp more Reliable.

With Powers we now get crazy builds like Innate Attack (Melee C-1, -20%; Reliable +10, +50%).

That's why a number of us reject the interpretation from Powers.

Fair enough. I'm personally a big fan of house rules, so I'm not going to say that people shouldn't use them — especially if there's something genuinely broken in the published rules. That said, let's go with the most recent printing of the Enhancement, in a book published well after Powers was and presumably after its abusability was realized. I'm talking, of course, about Power-Ups 4: Enhancements:

This works exactly like, and is cumulative with, a power Talent (see Powers for details).

Note that this supplement specifically calls out enhancements in general as a potential source of abuse that the GM should watch out for; and Reliable is marked as “may cause significant problems all on its own”. So yeah, there's an official acknowledgement that it can be problematic — but at the same time, it doubles down on what it is. Saying that it works differently than it does is just misleading; saying that it should work differently than it does is another matter, though I'd still Artie that it's okay to use it as written, given proper GM oversight.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

2 things. 1 - That's an entirely optional chapter that suggestion is drawn from.

The entire book is optional. And it's the only place in the entire book that actually sets forth the principles of how Talents apply to Advantages.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

2 - Kromm has outright stated that sometimes Power Talents are the UBC for access to further powers and thus you Do Not Add It To Things Not Directly Spelled Out As Benefiting From It.

#2 up there can mean having a useless Power Talent.

How is the Powering Up section for each Advantage not directly spelling out what benefits from the Talent?

Originally Posted by evileeyore

That's the issue I've been harping on.

Again, fair enough; it appears we had a case of crossed wires.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Except when it can as per pg 158:

Talent with a power acts as a bonus to all success rolls against attributes, secondary characteristics, or skills to use the power’s abilities.

General rule of thumb when dealing with multiple rules that appear to contradict: when dealing with a specific case, the more specific rule applies. In this case, we've got a general rule of “Talent acts as a bonus to all success rolls against attributes, secondary characteristics, or skills to use the power's abilities”, and we've got a more specific rule of “if the ability is an attribute or secondary characteristic, then Talent doesn't add to it.”. As a house rule, I would extend that more specific rule to apply to anything that's Talent-like (e.g., Magery, Power Investiture, or Charisma).

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I call attention to the fact that "shouldn't" doesn't mean "can't" and "appropriate" doesn't mean "only way allowed".

That's just an acknowledgement of the fact that there are no Rules Ninjas who are going to break down your door and take your stuff if you decide not to play things by the rules as written (they're more likely to poison you in your sleep). Ultimately, what is allowed is what the GM says is allowed. As I said earlier, the whole book is optional.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Also, it doesn't have to be built as a 'Power'. IQ 10 (Reliable +10, +50%) [100] sure sounds kosher* to me... (note the lack of a "+" in front of the 10)

Yeah; and I'm trying to find where GURPS talks about applying modifiers directly to attributes (as opposed to attribute bonuses). I know it's there somewhere; but for the life of me, I can't find it. But if I recall correctly, it's something to the effect of “sell down the attribute's rating to zero, then buy it back with the modifiers applied”. In effect, the “buying it back” stage is identical to buying it as a bonus, meaning that Talent (and, by RAW, Reliable) would not apply.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

* As kosher as Visualization (Reduced Time, +140%; Reliable +10, +50%; Selectivity, +10%) [30].

This is a much better example of how this Enhancement can be abused, as it doesn't have the aforementioned “Attributes as Abilities” box covering for it.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

This is a much better example of how this Enhancement can be abused, as it doesn't have the aforementioned “Attributes as Abilities” box covering for it.

I considered using Jack of All Trades, but figured Visualization carried more punch.

[dataweaver]

Still, all it does is reinforce the point that enhancements can be abused, and that the GM should keep an eye out for abuse. The alternative would be to say that all Enhancements rated at three or four eyes should be scrapped or rewritten — which is a valid route to go; but scrapping them removed possibly valid uses, and rewriting them takes us into house-rule territory.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

From the Luck thread:


Here's the “Reliable” Enhancement:

Your ability usually works as intended. Perhaps you have extensive experience or natural aptitude with it, or maybe it's just easy to use. Whatever the reason, you get a bonus on all rolls to use it.

That's the summary of what the Enhancement is. But what does it mean? That's where the very next part comes in:

This works exactly like Talent, and can't affect anything that Talent wouldn't affect. It's cumulative with Talent, where applicable.

There seems to be a common misconception that Reliable is an Enhancement counterpart to Unreliable, which makes perfect sense when you consider their names. But GURPS has a history of using misleading names (see Honesty, which would be more accurate if it was called Law-Abiding), and Reliable is another case of this. “Reliable” actually has nothing to do with activation rolls, a point that I'll get to shortly. What Reliable does is spelled out very clearly in the above text: it acts like a Talent where that single Advantage is concerned. What it can do is defined by what a Talent can do when applied to the Advantage in question: it can do everything the Talent can do (with one exception, which I'll get to shortly), and can't do anything that the Talent can't do. As for the exception, it's mentioned in the third and final part of the write-up:

Reliable is handy for advantages that routinely suffer large penalties (e.g., the -8 to use Precognition actively). It isn't available for ranged attacks — use Accurate (p.B102) for those. Reliable costs +5% per +1 bonus, up to a maximum of +10.

So the one thing that Reliable can't do that a Talent can is to add to ranged attacks. Otherwise, it's a one-trait Talent.

No. That passage doesn't say "the one thing". It only says "one thing". I can already point out another thing that Reliable can't do, and that's apply to a whole set of advantages. I still maintain that Reliable can't be applied to anything you don't need a roll for because if you don't make rolls to use an ability it isn't relevant to that ability.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

No. That passage doesn't say "the one thing". It only says "one thing". I can already point out another thing that Reliable can't do, and that's apply to a whole set of advantages.

Yeah; that's pretty much what I said with “Otherwise, it's a one-trait Talent”. As in, it works like a Talent that only applies to one trait.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I still maintain that Reliable can't be applied to anything you don't need a roll for because if you don't make rolls to use an ability it isn't relevant to that ability.

If you want to play it that way, go for it! I have absolutely no intention of stopping you, even if I could. My only dispute here is with your insistence that your way is the correct reading of the rules and that those who disagree with you are Doing It Wrong.

The published rules for Reliable are very clear, with no room for ambiguity: Reliable works like a power Talent does, except it doesn't apply to ranged attacks. So if Talent applies to Damage Resistance by adding to Power Block attempts, so does Reliable; if Talent gives a bonus to die roll influence by Luck but only if that use of Luck is declared in advance, then so does Reliable. If you choose to do it differently in your game, that's your right; but when you say that the above is objectively wrong, you're mistaken.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

The published rules for Reliable are very clear, with no room for ambiguity: Reliable works like a power Talent does, except it doesn't apply to ranged attacks. So if Talent applies to Damage Resistance by adding to Power Block attempts, so does Reliable;.

If Reliable can be applied to Damage Resistance at all. And if it can that lends itself to some very abusive builds if say, you only only have one level of Damage Resistance.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

If Reliable can be applied to Damage Resistance at all. And if it can that lends itself to some very abusive builds if say, you only only have one level of Damage Resistance.

Using DR to Power Block has restrictions on when it can be used. As well, the Power Block is literally a double-or-nothing use: if you succeed, you get double DR against the attack; if you fail, you get no DR. If you only have one DR, then even on a successful Power Block you'll only have 2 DR to resist the damage. That doesn't strike me as particularly abusive, even if a +50% Reliable Enhancement were to almost guarantee that the Block will succeed — which it won't, unless you also invest heavily in HT: a Power Block against a physical attack is 3 + (HT + Talent)/2; so if HT is in the 10–14 range and you have 10 levels of Reliable on your DR, that still means that your double-or-nothing Power Block will only succeed slightly more often than not.

The closest thing to an abuse that I can think of would be to take as many levels of Reliable as you can without causing the price to increase: DR 1 (Reliable +2, +10%) would still cost 5 points (5.5 points, rounded down), but your Power Block would succeed on a 4 + HT/2 roll instead of a 3 + HT/2 roll. A free +1! Yay!

And even if there is a way to do an abusive “Reliable DR” build, the GM still has the prerogative to veto the abusive build, while still allowing non-abusive builds to stand. “It can lead to abusive builds” is not sufficient grounds to say that a reading of the rules is faulty; otherwise, every Enhancement that Power-Ups 4 gives multiple eyeballs should be considered faulty.

Finally: “if Reliable can apply to DR at all.” Remember that Powers carries a default assumption that all of its abilities are in some way or another switchable: Reliable DR probably represents something like a force field or active control of an element. If it represents something like redundant organs or natural armor, you probably don't get even the Talent bonus; and if you don't get Talent, then you don't get Reliable. You always need to take into account the concept that a build is intended to represent; and if that concept is nonsensical, or the build doesn't match the concept, the GM can and should veto it. So yeah; “if Reliable can apply to DR at all” — the catch being that sometimes, it can.