Lying and social skills

FeiLin · 03-19-2020, 03:31 PM

How would you use skills to bluff or deceive characters? Specifically, what’s the basis for what a lie actually is?

Maybe this is as easy as “well, social skills are just used depending on how the person who is actively using them sees the world, son.” Even if that answer is quite good, I cannot help but wonder: what of the other person’s subjective (world)view, and what of objective reality?

1. Say someone’s trying to convince someone else there’s a demon running down the street, would it make a difference if there actually was one (like a modifier), or would that just be a case of using a different skill? That also would mean that some people might have less chance of succeeding in case there really is a demon, as opposed to a pure lie; would that make sense from a “sensible” perspective? How does that correspond to real life?

2. In a way, shouldn’t any statement be a form of social interaction roll or another? Disregarding the fact that it would slightly inconvenient for the GM and slower gameplay for everyone... Or is practicality even one of the main reasons why it’s not?

3. Also, how do you decide on “which side of the roll” something? If a person doesn’t believe in demons, is that a modifier or the result of a poor roll? Do you prefer a strong correlation between character/situational importance and modifier diligence, or do you employ a different strategy?

Phantasm · 03-19-2020, 03:46 PM

Acting is the skill of lying convincingly, generally used to pretend to be someone you're not for the purposes of deception but can be used for bold-faced lying to anyone.

Fast-Talk is the skill of convincing people to do something against their better judgement. This may also involve lying, but the end effect is more "Yeah, it's a good idea to jump off that cliff! Go do it!" than "My name is Mike Rotch."

That help?

Dalillama · 03-19-2020, 04:22 PM

1) Depends heavily on the actual or perceived likelihood of demons rampaging down the street. In the real world, you're going to have a serious penalty unless they can see the demon, in which case you probably don't need to convince them of anything. It also depends on what, if any, followup, you're requesting. "There's a rampaging demon coming down the street, run!" is a better bet than
"There's a rampaging demon coming down the street, hide me!" If you're using something more plausible (or are in a setting where that is plausible), like "There's a terrorist gunman coming down the street", then Acting would be used to convincingly simulate panic (assuming you aren't legitimately panicking), while Fast-Talk would be the relevant skill to get in somewhere you shouldn't be on the grounds that you're an official person doing something official about it

2)Because a)it would be unbelievably tedious, as you note, and b) Social skills in GURPS are, for the most part, the skills of getting someone to do what you want. If you're not trying to guide someone towards a specific course of action they aren't taking, social skills don't come into play.

3) see 1. Even people in the modern world who believe that demons exist, of whom there are a great many, would generally be extremely sceptical of a claim that one was physically embodied and gorily attacking people. Once again, the actual presence of some monstrosity is going to colour that view. Even the most hardened materialistic atheist is going to agree that yes, a tentacular horror is eating downtown, although they might insist on calling it an alien rather than a demon.

Anthony · 03-19-2020, 05:09 PM

Whether or not you're lying affects whether Detect Lies works on you. It is also likely relevant to what happens if someone tries to check your story (you don't need to convince someone not to check if checking will actually confirm your story). It does not otherwise affect influence skills.

David Johnston2 · 03-19-2020, 06:11 PM

First and foremost, you don't even need a social skill to tell a lie and be believed. If you aren't disliked (reaction roll), your story doesn't go against any preconceived notions, and your audience isn't aware of contrary facts and what you are saying isn't obviously internally contradictory, you'll be believed.

Fast Talk is the skill of rushing people so they won't think about what you are saying long enough to see the contradictions and remember the contrary facts.

Acting is the skill of feigning emotions you don't necessarily feel. If a strange woman tells you she's a widow you'll probably take her at her word but it takes Acting skill to convince you that she is currently grieving over the death of her husband last week.

Psychology can be used to guess at lies a person will want to believe.

Diplomacy is useful for getting people to like you something that is useful for a liar.

FeiLin · 03-21-2020, 01:02 AM

Great, thanks for all the answers and concussion!

I’m still a bit curious about how you’d handle the pre/post conditions of 3), in the original post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

Whether or not you're lying affects whether Detect Lies works on you. It is also likely relevant to what happens if someone tries to check your story (you don't need to convince someone not to check if checking will actually confirm your story). It does not otherwise affect influence skills.

I’m didn’t entirely get what you mean about checking the story and how it does not otherwise affect influence skills; could you explain a bit more?

On the topic of Detect Lies: that’s a skill that shouldn’t be used by a PC (at least not in all circumstances), much like a skills like Diplomacy, Fast-Talk, etc, shouldn’t be used on a PC. The rationale being that the player should be the one making those decisions, unless explicitly wanting to submit to dice rolls or playing a character that’s better at social interaction then himself/herself.

Anthony · 03-21-2020, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeiLin

I’m didn’t entirely get what you mean about checking the story and how it does not otherwise affect influence skills; could you explain a bit more?

If you're lying and the person you're lying to has a way of checking whether you're telling the truth, it's important to convince them not to check. If you aren't lying or they can't check, it isn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeiLin

On the topic of Detect Lies: that’s a skill that shouldn’t be used by a PC (at least not in all circumstances), much like a skills like Diplomacy, Fast-Talk, etc, shouldn’t be used on a PC.

There are rules for using influence skills on PCs, and if detect lies wasn't meant to be usable by PCs it wouldn't be there in the first place.

Phantasm · 03-21-2020, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeiLin

On the topic of Detect Lies: that’s a skill that shouldn’t be used by a PC (at least not in all circumstances), much like a skills like Diplomacy, Fast-Talk, etc, shouldn’t be used on a PC. The rationale being that the player should be the one making those decisions, unless explicitly wanting to submit to dice rolls or playing a character that’s better at social interaction then himself/herself.

This I disagree with. I understand the rationale, but since the majority of my games take place in a text-based environment (IRC and Discord), it becomes impossible to tell whether the GM is having an NPC lie to the PCs. I can GM "with a straight face" over IRC/Discord while secretly cackling like a madman behind the keyboard with my players none the wiser. Many of my players tell me they want to roll Detect Lies to make sure the NPC isn't lying. (That I say "S/he believes s/he's telling the truth" helps keep things somewhat ambiguous without shortcutting the adventure with a single roll; the NPC may not be lying per se, but he can still be misinformed/wrong.)

This is especially useful when a PC is for various reasons quite paranoid....

bocephus · 03-23-2020, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantasm

I can GM "with a straight face" over IRC/Discord while secretly cackling like a madman behind the keyboard with my players none the wiser.

This is especially useful when a PC is for various reasons quite paranoid....

Something like "being sure a GM is secretly cackling behind a text screen" ???? MUWAHAHAHA I mean, you just said it :)

Anaraxes · 03-23-2020, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantasm

I say "S/he believes s/he's telling the truth" helps keep things somewhat ambiguous

Detect Lies is a secret information roll, so you really should say (type) "You believe that she believes she's telling the truth". :)

03-19-2020, 03:31 PM	#1
FeiLin Join Date: Aug 2018	Lying and social skills How would you use skills to bluff or deceive characters? Specifically, what’s the basis for what a lie actually is? Maybe this is as easy as “well, social skills are just used depending on how the person who is actively using them sees the world, son.” Even if that answer is quite good, I cannot help but wonder: what of the other person’s subjective (world)view, and what of objective reality? 1. Say someone’s trying to convince someone else there’s a demon running down the street, would it make a difference if there actually was one (like a modifier), or would that just be a case of using a different skill? That also would mean that some people might have less chance of succeeding in case there really is a demon, as opposed to a pure lie; would that make sense from a “sensible” perspective? How does that correspond to real life? 2. In a way, shouldn’t any statement be a form of social interaction roll or another? Disregarding the fact that it would slightly inconvenient for the GM and slower gameplay for everyone... Or is practicality even one of the main reasons why it’s not? 3. Also, how do you decide on “which side of the roll” something? If a person doesn’t believe in demons, is that a modifier or the result of a poor roll? Do you prefer a strong correlation between character/situational importance and modifier diligence, or do you employ a different strategy?

03-19-2020, 03:46 PM	#2
Phantasm Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the road again...	Re: Lying and social skills Acting is the skill of lying convincingly, generally used to pretend to be someone you're not for the purposes of deception but can be used for bold-faced lying to anyone. Fast-Talk is the skill of convincing people to do something against their better judgement. This may also involve lying, but the end effect is more "Yeah, it's a good idea to jump off that cliff! Go do it!" than "My name is Mike Rotch." That help? __________________ "Life ... is an Oreo cookie." - J'onn J'onzz, 1991 "But mom, I don't wanna go back in the dungeon!" The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation. Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting

03-19-2020, 04:22 PM	#3
Dalillama Join Date: Nov 2004	Re: Lying and social skills 1) Depends heavily on the actual or perceived likelihood of demons rampaging down the street. In the real world, you're going to have a serious penalty unless they can see the demon, in which case you probably don't need to convince them of anything. It also depends on what, if any, followup, you're requesting. "There's a rampaging demon coming down the street, run!" is a better bet than "There's a rampaging demon coming down the street, hide me!" If you're using something more plausible (or are in a setting where that is plausible), like "There's a terrorist gunman coming down the street", then Acting would be used to convincingly simulate panic (assuming you aren't legitimately panicking), while Fast-Talk would be the relevant skill to get in somewhere you shouldn't be on the grounds that you're an official person doing something official about it 2)Because a)it would be unbelievably tedious, as you note, and b) Social skills in GURPS are, for the most part, the skills of getting someone to do what you want. If you're not trying to guide someone towards a specific course of action they aren't taking, social skills don't come into play. 3) see 1. Even people in the modern world who believe that demons exist, of whom there are a great many, would generally be extremely sceptical of a claim that one was physically embodied and gorily attacking people. Once again, the actual presence of some monstrosity is going to colour that view. Even the most hardened materialistic atheist is going to agree that yes, a tentacular horror is eating downtown, although they might insist on calling it an alien rather than a demon.

03-19-2020, 05:09 PM	#4
Anthony Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Berkeley, CA	Re: Lying and social skills Whether or not you're lying affects whether Detect Lies works on you. It is also likely relevant to what happens if someone tries to check your story (you don't need to convince someone not to check if checking will actually confirm your story). It does not otherwise affect influence skills. __________________ My GURPS site and Blog.

03-19-2020, 06:11 PM	#5
David Johnston2 Join Date: Dec 2007	Re: Lying and social skills First and foremost, you don't even need a social skill to tell a lie and be believed. If you aren't disliked (reaction roll), your story doesn't go against any preconceived notions, and your audience isn't aware of contrary facts and what you are saying isn't obviously internally contradictory, you'll be believed. Fast Talk is the skill of rushing people so they won't think about what you are saying long enough to see the contradictions and remember the contrary facts. Acting is the skill of feigning emotions you don't necessarily feel. If a strange woman tells you she's a widow you'll probably take her at her word but it takes Acting skill to convince you that she is currently grieving over the death of her husband last week. Psychology can be used to guess at lies a person will want to believe. Diplomacy is useful for getting people to like you something that is useful for a liar.