Sword question - swing vs thrust

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

while for those with ST12 or higher, swinging is the best way to get through armor.

Realistically, the best way to get through armor is a pick. The problem is that if you get your aim slightly wrong, the pick turns instead of doing something useful; an axe is considerable more forgiving of getting distance wrong, a mace is also more forgiving of getting the angle wrong.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Realistically, the best way to get through armor is a pick. The problem is that if you get your aim slightly wrong, the pick turns instead of doing something useful; an axe is considerable more forgiving of getting distance wrong, a mace is also more forgiving of getting the angle wrong.

I'd personally say, realistically, the best way to get through armor is a shaped charge warhead, but, hey, why quibble.

proper edge placement should be relevant for any cutting tool. I've been working on a log in my front yard this week, and there's plenty of times my strokes are not on target, and you can feel the axe twist, and essentially do nothing. This happens with swords as well, and as you point out, with a pick.

I've toyed around with the idea of getting rid of the cutting damage modifer, and instead having cutting attacks do increased damage based on margin of success. Skilled swordsmen can slice men in half with ease, while untrained but strong guys often struggle to inflict any more meaningful damage than if they had a stick. But it felt clunky.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

proper edge placement should be relevant for any cutting tool.

The difference is that there are three ways a strike can be wrong:

1. It can come in at the wrong angle. This often results in glancing.
2. It can be to one side of where you want to hit.
3. You can overextend or underextend.

Axes and picks are roughly equally tolerant of the first two, but axes give you a couple inches leeway in extension (and swords give you even more leeway), while picks don't.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Boge

I only thrust to the vitals, because damage for a thrust is less than a swing unless you go for the vitals. It gets worse at higher strengths. It's even worse when against armor. And it's even worse when you add in Weapon Mastery bonuses.

Yes, it is a common house rule to tweak the ST damage table so that SW is about 50% more damage than TH, not twice as much. Then thrusting and swinging for cutting damage do similar amounts of wounding against DR 0.

Both in real life and in GURPS, cuts are more favourable against some targets like the arms and legs.

And of course it depends on the weapon and the target's armour: swinging is more favourable than thrusting with a Light Club, but the reverse is true for a Rapier which can only do Tip Cuts from Martial Arts.

[nudj]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Yes, it is a common house rule to tweak the ST damage table so that SW is about 50% more damage than TH, not twice as much. Then thrusting and swinging for cutting damage do similar amounts of wounding against DR 0.

Both in real life and in GURPS, cuts are more favourable against some targets like the arms and legs.

And of course it depends on the weapon and the target's armour: swinging is more favourable than thrusting with a Light Club, but the reverse is true for a Rapier which can only do Tip Cuts from Martial Arts.

Given (1) the necessity of thrusting to the vitals (or changing the damage table) and (2) weird extra rules in Low tech that nerf cutting, I'm beginning to think we should be using KYOS. This already has the virtue of giving a nice cost curve all the way up to supers and working better for creatures. But now it seems it gives better results for swordplay too. High DR still requires cutting and zero DR requires thrust, with tactical options in the middle.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by nudj

Given (1) the necessity of thrusting to the vitals (or changing the damage table) and (2) weird extra rules in Low tech that nerf cutting, I'm beginning to think we should be using KYOS. This already has the virtue of giving a nice cost curve all the way up to supers and working better for creatures. But now it seems it gives better results for swordplay too. High DR still requires cutting and zero DR requires thrust, with tactical options in the middle.

That's an indication that you haven't solved the problem...

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I'd personally say, realistically, the best way to get through armor is a shaped charge warhead, but, hey, why quibble.

Lunge mines!

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by nudj

But now it seems it gives better results for swordplay too. High DR still requires cutting and zero DR requires thrust, with tactical options in the middle.

With ST 10, a thrusting broadsword, and using the blunt trauma rules from Low-Tech, thrusting averages at least as much injury as swinging against up to DR4 - 5 with a Committed Attack (Strong) and 6 with an All-Out Attack (Strong). Above that, either is pretty marginal.

At ST 11, those thresholds are 5, 6, and 7 (for regular, committed, and all-out).
At ST 12, the damage progression really kicks in and it becomes never, 0, and 1.

However, not all injuries are created the same. A sword that bashes somebody through armor but fails to penetrate isn't likely to cause bleeding, for example.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by nudj

High DR still requires cutting and zero DR requires thrust, with tactical options in the middle.

The problem is that cutting is realistically absolutely terrible against armor. Realistically, cutting excels at doing gross tissue damage and at destroying fibrous materials (ropes, most plants, muscles, ...) and, because it damages a larger area, is more tolerant of imprecise aim (an impaling attack can hit things like tendons and nerves, but it's rather likely to miss). Impaling attacks are good at going through armor and reaching internals, but (even when at the same energies, like a pick) less effective if they don't hit anything important (a pick is, however, better against hard homogenous objects such as rock).

[Plane]

Originally Posted by RyanW

There are also cases where swings really should not work well, but the rules don't say anything about them. Cramped quarters, through the gaps of a shield wall*, between the bars of a portcullis, etc.

* In either direction, really. I could see a case for reducing the attack penalty for wielding a large shield when thrusting, for example.

If doing tactical combat, it wouldn't seem unreasonable to me to, instead of always having reach 1+ weapons occupying the hex in front of the user, to have them transition through a 60 degree arc during swung attacks, so if that hex is occupied, you can't swing from that direction.

Some people might also specialize in swings from certain directions, like doing a backhand/forehand/downward/upward swing.