Pterosaur Size, Weight, ST and Maximum Encumbrance when Flying

[thrash]

You might consider whether domesticated azhdarchids could not be bred toward whatever shape is most convenient for their intended purpose -- flattening out the spine, or shifting the CG forward, say. That would justify some variance from the scientific reconstructions.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by thrash

You might consider whether domesticated azhdarchids could not be bred toward whatever shape is most convenient for their intended purpose -- flattening out the spine, or shifting the CG forward, say. That would justify some variance from the scientific reconstructions.

Sure.

The particular azhdarchids I might feature in my campaign have only been domesticated for fifty years, however.

On the other hand, the species is not any particular Earth species, but rather a somewhat similar species that had evolved to use magical energy as a partial food source and to fuel much more powerful flight, in order to move closer to an apex predator status in a world where there were plenty of other adaptations to mana.

So if the shape could plausibly be somewhat different from real fossils found on Earth, but still a realistic shape for an animal that could fly and survive even without magic, by all means, make suggestions for how to alter the morphology.

[Icelander]

So, for a 550 lbs. pterosaur looking somewhat like this, what might be plausible stats?

From Luke, I've got ST 22. Well, technically, ST 15-16 and Arm ST that also counts as Lifting ST at +5 to +7, but I think that would be modeled as ST 22, HP 15-16 and a Quirk or minor Disadvantage to make the lower body and legs ST 15-16.

But what about the other stats?

Are these plausible in any way?

ST 22; DX 12; IQ 2; HT 12.
HP 15. Basic Speed 6.00. Per 12; Will 10. FP 12.

I'm very unsure about the IQ, for example. Should they be as intelligent as modern reptiles or as intelligent as modern birds of prey?

What about their DX, agility in flight and endurance? I'm speaking about their performance in No Mana Zones, of course, i.e. if this were a completely natural animal, though not necessarily an exact match to any known fossil.

And does anyone have suggestions for Traits beyond the obvious morphological ones and Flight? What kind of senses ought they have, for example?

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'm very unsure about the IQ, for example. Should they be as intelligent as modern reptiles or as intelligent as modern birds of prey?

There isn't much evidence that pterosaurs had sophisticated behavior. For example, their young seem to have been able to fly at or shortly after hatching, requiring minimal to no parental behavior. This is not a lot to go on, but then, behavior doesn't often fossilize. Overall, I'd tend toward the "reptile" edge of the spectrum, maybe on par with crocodilians or monitor lizards (noting that crocodilians and monitors have significantly more sophisticated behavior and intelligence than most other reptiles).

Originally Posted by Icelander

What about their DX, agility in flight and endurance?

At the very least, they would have to have enough coordination to pluck up food with their beak. Often, this was lively food trying its best to get away, so DX would be at worst average, possibly above average.

This blog post has some details on flight performance
http://markwitton-com.blogspot.com/2...could-fly.html
with references to the original research. It suggests that launch would be tiring, and the giant azhdarchids could get maybe 90 seconds of hard flapping before needing a rest (such as by gliding for a while). In that 90 seconds the pterosaur could travel a couple of kilometers. Top flight speed is given as 90 km/hour or more. Once gliding at sufficient altitude, the giants could likely fly very long distances using thermals or deflected air currents.

Originally Posted by Icelander

And does anyone have suggestions for Traits beyond the obvious morphological ones and Flight? What kind of senses ought they have, for example?

They would probably have good vision, for spotting prey on the ground from their great height (either standing or in flight). It is not clear if they would be able to do a good job recognizing things spotted by their vision - birds can, crocodilians and monitor lizards have a harder time, and all the other reptiles mostly react based on how big and how fast something is moving rather than by making a visual ID.

Scent is less important for animals that hunt from a great height. There are outliers - petrels, albatrosses, shearwaters, skuas, and new world vultures all have very well developed senses of smell, but most other birds do not. As a guess, I would not give the azhdarchids any special GURPS smell-based advantages or disadvantages.

Their hearing was probably okay. Crocodilians and birds both communicate using sound, so it is likely that pterosaurs did too. Whether they have better-than-human hearing is up in the air. Most birds other than owls wouldn't merit any special GURPS attributes; crocodilians are limited as far as hearing goes from a human standpoint by only being able to detect lower frequency sounds and not having all the mental equipment for processing the sounds. I use my custom Non-Discriminatory Hearing disadvantage for this
http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/Ads-n'-stu...r-hearing.html

The beak is probably an impaling striker.

Peripheral vision seems appropriate.

When walking they have extra legs (4 legs).

With a reptile-level of intelligence, Low Empathy is likely.

No Fine Manipulators, of course.

Those hollow bone aggressively optimized for low weight might well give them reduced HP.

There's so much we don't know because it can't fossilize. You could easily justify things like Hard to Kill, Vibration Sense, Chummy, Curious, and such. In fact, they probably did have traits that don't fossilize well. So go ahead and give them Gluttony or who knows what.

Luke

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

There isn't much evidence that pterosaurs had sophisticated behavior. For example, their young seem to have been able to fly at or shortly after hatching, requiring minimal to no parental behavior. This is not a lot to go on, but then, behavior doesn't often fossilize. Overall, I'd tend toward the "reptile" edge of the spectrum, maybe on par with crocodilians or monitor lizards (noting that crocodilians and monitors have significantly more sophisticated behavior and intelligence than most other reptiles).

IQ 2, then.

If these particular pterosaurs used their adaptation to mana and consequent greater strength for weight when in any kind of mana zone to become more active predators, even hunting on the wing, would that be likely to move them up to IQ 3? Or is the difference more a matter of how their social structure would be, with prey preferences not holding much importance?

I'm still imagining seabirds that live on cliffs or hills by the seashore, just very scaled up versions. Add a little of skua predatory behaviour to the realistic stork or heron like pterosaurs, at least while this magical species is in Low Mana Zones (ST 26-27) or Normal Mana Zones (ST 31-32), as they'll be so strong for their weight in such magical areas that they can fly much more like smaller, more agile birds.

And as mana stimulates the growth of flora and fauna both, there would be plenty of prey in higher mana areas, if the pterosaurs were prepared to risk competition with even fiercer land- and sea-based predators.

What IQ are skuas and seagulls, by the way?

Originally Posted by lwcamp

At the very least, they would have to have enough coordination to pluck up food with their beak. Often, this was lively food trying its best to get away, so DX would be at worst average, possibly above average.

Does DX 12 feel like too much? It matches a pony of similar weight.

Originally Posted by lwcamp

This blog post has some details on flight performance
http://markwitton-com.blogspot.com/2...could-fly.html
with references to the original research. It suggests that launch would be tiring, and the giant azhdarchids could get maybe 90 seconds of hard flapping before needing a rest (such as by gliding for a while). In that 90 seconds the pterosaur could travel a couple of kilometers. Top flight speed is given as 90 km/hour or more. Once gliding at sufficient altitude, the giants could likely fly very long distances using thermals or deflected air currents.

Cool, thanks. Which of your animalia fraits for endurance would you assign them and would you fiddle with their FP at all?

Originally Posted by lwcamp

They would probably have good vision, for spotting prey on the ground from their great height (either standing or in flight). It is not clear if they would be able to do a good job recognizing things spotted by their vision - birds can, crocodilians and monitor lizards have a harder time, and all the other reptiles mostly react based on how big and how fast something is moving rather than by making a visual ID.

Is that a new trait from the Animalia site?

Originally Posted by lwcamp

Scent is less important for animals that hunt from a great height. There are outliers - petrels, albatrosses, shearwaters, skuas, and new world vultures all have very well developed senses of smell, but most other birds do not. As a guess, I would not give the azhdarchids any special GURPS smell-based advantages or disadvantages.

Sounds fair.

Originally Posted by lwcamp

Their hearing was probably okay. Crocodilians and birds both communicate using sound, so it is likely that pterosaurs did too. Whether they have better-than-human hearing is up in the air. Most birds other than owls wouldn't merit any special GURPS attributes; crocodilians are limited as far as hearing goes from a human standpoint by only being able to detect lower frequency sounds and not having all the mental equipment for processing the sounds. I use my custom Non-Discriminatory Hearing disadvantage for this
http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/Ads-n'-stu...r-hearing.html

Cool, I like it.

Originally Posted by lwcamp

The beak is probably an impaling striker.

Awesome.

Originally Posted by lwcamp

Peripheral vision seems appropriate.

When walking they have extra legs (4 legs).

Noted.

Originally Posted by lwcamp

With a reptile-level of intelligence, Low Empathy is likely.

Even if I give them higher IQ for their use of magical energies, it still seems appropriate..

Originally Posted by lwcamp

Those hollow bone aggressively optimized for low weight might well give them reduced HP.

As GURPS uses HP as a proxy for mass in collision, slam and knockback rules, I'd prefer another way to make them more vulnerable to broken bones. A Disadvantage or lower HT. As 550 lbs. creatures, it would feel odd reducing their HP below 15-16 and have humans effectively outmass them in case of a slam.

Originally Posted by lwcamp

There's so much we don't know because it can't fossilize. You could easily justify things like Hard to Kill, Vibration Sense, Chummy, Curious, and such. In fact, they probably did have traits that don't fossilize well. So go ahead and give them Gluttony or who knows what.

Luke

I'll add some traits that we have no evidence on either way, yes.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Icelander

And as mana stimulates the growth of flora and fauna both, there would be plenty of prey in higher mana areas, if the pterosaurs were prepared to risk competition with even fiercer land- and sea-based predators.

I assume that their apparent ability to take off without needing a run-up or much prep has to do with a need to be able to clear out quickly if a large land-bound predator shows up. A robust carnosaur of similar mass to these guys would make fairly short work of them if they stayed around to fight, I think, so they'd just fly off unless the odds looked unusually good.

As for DX, I'm always suspicious of the tendency to assign animals DX levels level different from Humans, especially Human-sizaed and upwards animals. Humans are not, on average, clumsy compared to other animals, in my experience. However, it does seem to be the norm in GURPS, and if the PCs that are interacting with the animals have decent point values it won't matter.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Rupert

I assume that their apparent ability to take off without needing a run-up or much prep has to do with a need to be able to clear out quickly if a large land-bound predator shows up. A robust carnosaur of similar mass to these guys would make fairly short work of them if they stayed around to fight, I think, so they'd just fly off unless the odds looked unusually good.

Naturally. If you can fly, staying to duke it out with something your own size, armed with formidable natural weapons, is a mug's game.

You want to 'fight' prey that is either much less fearsome than you are or at least caught off-guard by a swooping strike that embeds a killing beak in them. Basically, you want prey that goes from menu item to dinner in one fell swoop.

Originally Posted by Rupert

As for DX, I'm always suspicious of the tendency to assign animals DX levels level different from Humans, especially Human-sizaed and upwards animals. Humans are not, on average, clumsy compared to other animals, in my experience. However, it does seem to be the norm in GURPS, and if the PCs that are interacting with the animals have decent point values it won't matter.

Well, I exaggerated the pony in my memory. It's only DX 10 on Animalia.

DX 12 is large predators. I could buy anything from DX 10-12 for the non-magical stats of these things.

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Icelander

IQ 2, then.

If these particular pterosaurs used their adaptation to mana and consequent greater strength for weight when in any kind of mana zone to become more active predators, even hunting on the wing, would that be likely to move them up to IQ 3? Or is the difference more a matter of how their social structure would be, with prey preferences not holding much importance?

Monitor lizards, lamnid sharks, tunas, the various billfish (swordfish, marlins), dragonflies, jumping spiders, wolf spiders, and tiger beetles are all active predators with low-ish to very low IQ (although the monitors and the lamnids might justify an IQ 3 on the basis of their learning and problem solving skills). I don't think hunting style necessarily correlates with intelligence.

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'm still imagining seabirds that live on cliffs or hills by the seashore, just very scaled up versions. Add a little of skua predatory behaviour to the realistic stork or heron like pterosaurs, at least while this magical species is in Low Mana Zones (ST 26-27) or Normal Mana Zones (ST 31-32), as they'll be so strong for their weight in such magical areas that they can fly much more like smaller, more agile birds.

I will note that the jaw structure of azhdarchids is poorly adapted to plucking things from the sea. One estimate of the forces exerted on the beak from skimming behavior (plucking fish from the water while flying over the surface) indicated that it would snap the poor beast's neck when it dipped its bill.

But nesting on cliffs is a really good idea if you want to keep your eggs away from non-flying predators.

Originally Posted by Icelander

What IQ are skuas and seagulls, by the way?

Without having done a lot of research on them, I'd guess IQ 4. They're cleverer than chickens and hawks, adaptable, tricksy. I haven't seen any evidence that they are on par with the corvids or psitticines (which I would peg at IQ 5 to IQ 6 - about the same as most primates and even the great apes).

Originally Posted by Icelander

Does DX 12 feel like too much? It matches a pony of similar weight.

It seems reasonable - for the pterosaur, at least - given our lack of knowledge and actual experience with these things. It does seem excessive for the pony.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Cool, thanks. Which of your animalia fraits for endurance would you assign them and would you fiddle with their FP at all?

This could go all sorts of different ways. We know that they didn't have an avian-style extreme efficiency respiratory system, because they don't have the same pneumatized bones that birds do. But they might have had a different style of high efficiency respiratory system. Flight is metabolically demanding, so they would probably be at least as enduring as a person or dog, maybe more. So feel free to choose anything between no additional traits to any level of Increased Endurance.
http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/Ads-n'-stu...Endurance.html
Likewise, a few extra FP here or there would be reasonable but not mandated.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Is that a new trait from the Animalia site?

Not new, but it is something I use in Animalia
http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/Ads-n'-stu...ive-sight.html

Originally Posted by Icelander

As GURPS uses HP as a proxy for mass in collision, slam and knockback rules, I'd prefer another way to make them more vulnerable to broken bones. A Disadvantage or lower HT. As 550 lbs. creatures, it would feel odd reducing their HP below 15-16 and have humans effectively outmass them in case of a slam.

Good point. Their mass is already quite small for an animal of their size, so just keeping their HP where they are is reasonable.

Luke

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Rupert

I assume that their apparent ability to take off without needing a run-up or much prep has to do with a need to be able to clear out quickly if a large land-bound predator shows up.

It is interesting that the current biomechanical simulations of pterosaur launch let them just jump into the air and achieve powered flight without a run-up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALziqtuLxBQ
Pterosaurs can do this while birds can't because pterosaurs use the same muscles for launch as they do for flight (their wing muscles), so they can utilize their most powerful muscles in their body in both cases. Large birds launch with their legs, which can't have as much power because it would add weight during flight, so they cn't get the same instant take-off.

--- or that's our best guess, anyway. Until someone actually sees one of these things take off, we'll never know for sure.

Luke

[Celjabba]

Looking at the launch video, would an underbelly harness (like an hand glider tripod) work better than a saddle for the rider ? The pterosaur spine seem vertical on land.