Shotguns and RoF... is there a better way?

[kdtipa]

For firearms that have rates of fire listed with the multiplier ("3x9" being the example the book uses), I'm a little... unsure that I like the way it's handled. So I'm fine with using the normal "shots fired" rules. If you fire more than once, you apply the recoil rules as normal. Then you multiply the number of shots that hit, by the number of projectiles (the second number in the multiple, or the "9" in the example). I assume the second number is the probable number of pellets or whatever that are assumed to hit (lots more pellets come out, but only the 9 hits the intended target). I'm okay with that I guess.

The next part in the rules on page 409 of the basic set:

At extremely close range, multiple projectiles don't have time to spread. This increases lethality! At ranges less than 10% of 1/2D, don't apply the RoF multiplier to RoF. Instead, multiply both basic damage dice and the target's DR by half that value (round down).

So if I have a Pump Shotgun like the one listed on page 279 of the basic set, with a based damage of 1d+1 pi-, and I hit with one shot outside the 10% close range, I'm doing 9d+9 pi-? That's all counted together before subtracting DR? For realism I think I'd want to roll the 1d+1 damage, and apply the DR to each of the 9 pellets that hits. I don't think I'd want to roll each one and figure out each one separately... but that would be one more step toward realism in my mind. Anyway, am I understanding the rules correctly? Would I just be rolling 9d+9 pi- damage?

Now inside the 10% of 1/2D range... I'm multiplying the base damage by half that value, but I'm also multiplying target DR by half that value? So closer means the damage goes down? Fewer pellets hit? And the DR is more effective? I'm probably really confused... but even the example in the book sounds like I might be close.

And if I am... isn't there a better way to do this? Why not skip the half and max ranges? Just have a range increment, and within the first range increment, "all" the pellets hit (again, 9 in the example), and one fewer hits with each range increment until none hit. I'd say maybe use 5 yards. Within 10 yards, 8 pellets hit; within 15 yards, 7 pellets hit; And so on.

I'm still not sure I like the idea of combining the damage before DR... I'd have to think about that one. But anyway... Am I understanding the default rules correctly?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

For firearms that have rates of fire listed with the multiplier ("3x9" being the example the book uses), I'm a little... unsure that I like the way it's handled. So I'm fine with using the normal "shots fired" rules. If you fire more than once, you apply the recoil rules as normal. Then you multiply the number of shots that hit, by the number of projectiles (the second number in the multiple, or the "9" in the example).

No. You multiply the number of shots x the pellet load to get the RoF modifier. Then for each Rcl (which for pellets is 1) you succeed by you hit with a pellet.

So if I have a Pump Shotgun like the one listed on page 279 of the basic set, with a based damage of 1d+1 pi-, and I hit with one shot outside the 10% close range, I'm doing 9d+9 pi-?

Half of nine rounded down is four. you'd do 4d+4 against DRx4 (so DR 2 for human skin). Also boomstick range changes the wounding modifier to pi++ (like a slug). Unfortunately I can't seem to find the rules reference for that last thing.

Fewer pellets hit? And the DR is more effective?

More pellets hit. The shot hasn't had time to spread. However the penetration of individual pellets doesn't change, hence the DR multiplier.

[gilbertocarlos]

A shotgun with RoF 1x9 is exactly like a SMG with RoF 9 firing in full auto.

[kdtipa]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

No. You multiply the number of shots x the pellet load to get the RoF modifier. Then for each Rcl (which for pellets is 1) you succeed by you hit with a pellet.

So since the first number is the number of shots you can take, if I choose to only shoot once, make my skill roll and succeed, I multiply the 1 shot by the 9 pellets... which tells me what? You mention that recoil for the pellets is 1, so does that mean that I apply recoil to the total number of pellets instead of the shots? So with my single shot example, I'd have to make the shot by at least 8 in order to hit with all the pellets from that shot? That seems odd... since I'm only experiencing recoil once... not differently for each pellet. It seems more logical to me to apply recoil to figure out how many shots "hit", rather than pellets.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Half of nine rounded down is four. you'd do 4d+4 against DRx4 (so DR 2 for human skin). Also boomstick range changes the wounding modifier to pi++ (like a slug). Unfortunately I can't seem to find the rules reference for that last thing.

So I did understand correctly how to do the damage for a single shot within 10% of the 1/2D range... I just don't understand why you'd do it that way. Why multiply the DR when in close range? Or is that the game mechanics way of addressing the idea that at really close range, it might act as one "bullet", but still not one that penetrates DR well? So does that mean that DR is supposed to be applied to each pellet when not within the 10% of 1/2D by default rules?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

So since the first number is the number of shots you can take, if I choose to only shoot once, make my skill roll and succeed, I multiply the 1 shot by the 9 pellets... which tells me what?

You get a +2 to hit.

You mention that recoil for the pellets is 1, so does that mean that I apply recoil to the total number of pellets instead of the shots? So with my single shot example, I'd have to make the shot by at least 8 in order to hit with all the pellets from that shot?

Yes.

That seems odd... since I'm only experiencing recoil once... not differently for each pellet.

Rcl isn't the same thing as felt recoil. It's an abstract game statistic that includes all kinds of things.

It seems more logical to me to apply recoil to figure out how many shots "hit", rather than pellets.

The entire point of using a shotload is to make it easier to hit the target with some of the pellets. That's why they are designed to spread out a bit, depending on the "choke" of the weapon.

So I did understand correctly how to do the damage for a single shot within 10% of the 1/2D range... I just don't understand why you'd do it that way. Why multiply the DR when in close range?

Because the penetration of the individual pellets still sucks.

Or is that the game mechanics way of addressing the idea that at really close range, it might act as one "bullet", but still not one that penetrates DR well?

Exactly.

So does that mean that DR is supposed to be applied to each pellet when not within the 10% of 1/2D by default rules?

Of course. There's nothing special about shotloads that lets them ignore armor. Outside of "boomstick range" it uses the normal rapid fire rules with Rcl 1.

[kdtipa]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

A shotgun with RoF 1x9 is exactly like a SMG with RoF 9 firing in full auto.

That doesn't make sense. An SMG firing on full auto still means one bullet is coming out at a time, and each shot has the potential to shift the aim enough to hinder the accuracy of the next shot. By the end of 9 rounds, I know from experience that the muzzle is not likely to be pointed in the same place it started. But a shot gun round with pellets... each one doesn't affect the next pellet. It doesn't make sense to say that recoil is affecting each pellet a little more than another. They all come out at the same time.

But if the RoF 3 shotgun gets fired three times... I definitely see the pellets from the first shot to be more likely to hit than the pellets from the next shot. But if shots from a shot gun with pellets work like full auto fire from other guns... and I fire two shots... the pellets from the second shot are only going to hit if all the pellets from the first shot hit, and I still make it by more than the number of pellets... Which is not realistic at all. Who's going to fire a second shot (let alone a third) if the penalty to hit with any of the rounds from the second shot is already -8? Skeet shooters can pull off far faster shots, and they don't have to be masters to do it.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

That doesn't make sense. An SMG firing on full auto still means one bullet is coming out at a time, and each shot has the potential to shift the aim enough to hinder the accuracy of the next shot.

This is why shotloads have Rcl 1, instead of Rcl 3 (like a typical SMG) or the Rcl 4 that the same shotgun has firing slugs.

Originally Posted by kdtipa

But if shots from a shot gun with pellets work like full auto fire from other guns... and I fire two shots... the pellets from the second shot are only going to hit if all the pellets from the first shot hit, and I still make it by more than the number of pellets... Which is not realistic at all.

There's no "privilege" in the Rapid Fire rules. If it matters which shells hit; roll randomly.

[kdtipa]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

This is why shotloads have Rcl 1, instead of Rcl 3 (like a typical SMG) or the Rcl 4 that the same shotgun has firing slugs.

Sure, but if the number of pellets is 9, the first pellet in the second shot is already starting out with a penalty of -9. The first pellet in the third shot starts with a penalty of -18. Even with a recoil of 1, the odds of hitting anything with the second and third shot are kind of horrible. I'm going to point back to skeet shooters and suggest it doesn't work like the GURPS rules seem to.

[Gigermann]

The simple way to think about the "10% of ½D" rule is that, instead of checking to see how many pellets hit at that range, the rule assumes you hit with half of them (DR applying to each one, individually, as usual). I presume it's "half" because "all" would be a little too overpowered.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

Sure, but if the number of pellets is 9, the first pellet in the second shot is already starting out with a penalty of -9. The first pellet in the third shot starts with a penalty of -18.

Are you confusing 3e Recoil with 4e Rcl? There's no recoil penalty in 4e. Forget everything you knew about Rapid Fire in 3e and reread the rules for Rapid Fire B373.

Even with a recoil of 1, the odds of hitting anything with the second and third shot are kind of horrible.

There is no privilege in Rapid Fire. If you fired three shells and hit with nine pellets it is probably a mix of pellets from each shot. If it matters (because one of those shells was a special different ammo) roll randomly (in this case on a 5-6 on 1d the pellet was from the special load).

I'm going to point back to skeet shooters and suggest it doesn't work like the GURPS rules seem to.

The GURPS rules are for combat shooting.