Attribute levels and their meanings.

[Alonsua]

Important notice.
The staff have let me know that it is essential that we maintain a special level of cordiality in this thread and a friendly and inclusive language. Thanks for your understanding.

Important contributors
Gollum.

Basic foundations.
10: Average (most scores for most people).
11: Above-Average (high side of able-bodied, probably a good average for adventurers).
12: Exceptional (highest you’ll likely meet on the street, above-average for adventurers).
13: Amazing (highest you’ll likely see or hear about, strongly defines an adventurer).
14: Historical “bests” (historical “bests” and world-class people).
15: Unsurpassable (astounding even among great historical “bests”).

Appearance.
11 - Attractive (+1 on reaction rolls), 12 - Very Attractive (+1/3 on reaction rolls), 13 - Beautiful/Handsome (+2/4 on reaction rolls), 14 - Very Beautiful/Handsome (+2/6 on reaction rolls), 15 - Transcendent (+2/8 on reaction rolls).

Strength.
11 - Brawny, 12 - Very Brawny, 13 - Strong, 14 - Very Strong, 15 - Herculean.

Dexterity.
11 - Deft, 12 - Very Deft, 13 - Nimble, 14 - Very Nimble, 15 - Extremely Nimble.

Intelligence.
11 - Brilliant, 12 - Very Brilliant, 13 - Gifted, 14 - Very Gifted, 15 - Genius.

Health.
11 - Resilient, 12 - Very Resilient, 13 - Healthy, 14 - Very Healthy, 15 - Extremely Healthy.

Examples with Intelligence (average population sizes).
11 - Smartest in the classroom (remarkable), 12 - Smartest in the school (admirable), 13 - Smartest in the city (celebrated), 14 - Smartest in the country (world-class), 15 - Smartest in history (transcendent).

Examples with Strength (average bodyweight being the lower ones appropriate for Skinny).
11 - (125 lb - 216 lb), 12 - (167 lb - 274 lb), 13 - (216 lb - 343 lb), 14 - (275 lb - 421 lb), 15 - (343 lb - 512 lb).

Skill Levels.
Up to 9 - Novice, Up to 11 - Apprentice, Up to 13 - Journeyman, Up to 15 - Expert, Up to 18 - World-Class, Up to 21 - Greatest in history.

[hal]

For what it is worth - one individual got offensive to the point that I spoke privately with him, and failing to resolve the issue, placed him on a permanent "ignore". Rather than go running to the moderators and asking them to handle the situation - I simply placed the guy on ignore to the extent that once there, he remains there. No skin off his nose, no skin off mine, we just won't communicate to each other.

So, yes - being cordial is a good thing. But, as an original poster (ie the thread starter), you won't have much control over what is said by those who join in. The onus is upon them to maintain it or not.

On to your original post?

One of the issues with any role playing game is that without definitions to work with, it can become difficult to relate a character to reality. Having this kind of one for one rating helps to understand perhaps, where the characters fit in the overall grand scheme of things. Now, if only SJGames could have done something a little more differently than 1 character point in study is worth 200 hours. ;)

The time it takes to reach World Class in GURPS for an ordinary human being works out to 9,600 hours. If this character were to study 1 hour per day under a tutor, that would be a bit over 26 years. If they have to self-study, that would take twice as long, and be worth about 52 years. So, that seems plausible right? Take an IQ 15 character learning that same skill (I used Physician by the by for this example) the hours required would be 5,600 hours. Spending 1 hour per day with a teacher, our physician would require only about 15 years, or a bit over 30 through self study.

That is to reach "History's BEST" per the guidelines you show below.

Now for the bad news if you will...

Any player running his character in the game, can allocate earned experience points towards their skill used in game, and reach their "History's Best" level while only spending at most, a year's time in game play. If a player earns on average, 3 experience per game session, and plays twice a month, that's 6 points per month, 72 points per year. That's more than enough to gain the 48 points for an individual with a 10 stat, to raise it to a skill 21 - and in less time than 15 to 26 years. ;)

There is one saving grace in all of this however. That is the adage "Jack of all trades, master of none". GURPS has so many skills to invest in, that having a breadth of knowledge almost creates a difficulty in mastering any given skill to that high a level. A fun bumper sticker to have for GURPS might be "So many skills, so few experience points" or something to that vein.

For now, I'm glad you took the time consolidate the information into one pithy paragraph. I'm not certain that I'd go with the attributes listing for my game worlds, but I would say that anyone with an attribute higher than 12 is going to be noticed unless the character in question makes an effort to hide their exceptionalism.

As a side note? Take note of the fact that "Talents" can raise the relative value of any given stat in ways not listed on your chart. For instance? Imagine having an attribute at 14, but also having a +4 Talent that contains 9 skills. That is functionally an Stat rated at not 14 with respect to an attribute, but functionally an 18. So, 80 points in IQ (for instance) plus 40 points in Talents, for a net investment of 120 of your 150 points - and you have a really potentially TALENTED individual whose skills start at 17 (in 9 skills) for a mere 200 hours worth of study time (1 character point).

using the guidelines you've collected in your first post as relates to "Normal people" is good. Just remember that player characters aren't really "normal"

;)

For the record? I once had a player who wanted to have an IQ 15 character with a level 4 talent in computer related skills. He balked at being placed in a situation in which (in this sci-fi campaign universe) where the corporations KNEW how good he was. When I mentioned to him that the Corporations would be on the lookout for anyone with talent in certain skills, and would learn of such talent as the kid grew up (corporate sponsorship of schools, scholarship testing programs, aid for the poor who meet the criteria) the player realized "Darn!" and made an effort to hide his capabilities. And that, only because he had an NPC uncle who was looking out for his interests early on and helped to mask his true abilities. It didn't save his skin in the end however, because his capabilities required that any teacher he'd want, had to have a skill higher than his, and THAT was the sticking point.

Good luck with this thread this time around. :)

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by hal

For what it is worth - one individual got offensive to the point that I spoke privately with him, and failing to resolve the issue, placed him on a permanent "ignore". Rather than go running to the moderators and asking them to handle the situation - I simply placed the guy on ignore to the extent that once there, he remains there. No skin off his nose, no skin off mine, we just won't communicate to each other.

So, yes - being cordial is a good thing. But, as an original poster (ie the thread starter), you won't have much control over what is said by those who join in. The onus is upon them to maintain it or not.

On to your original post?

One of the issues with any role playing game is that without definitions to work with, it can become difficult to relate a character to reality. Having this kind of one for one rating helps to understand perhaps, where the characters fit in the overall grand scheme of things. Now, if only SJGames could have done something a little more differently than 1 character point in study is worth 200 hours. ;)

The time it takes to reach World Class in GURPS for an ordinary human being works out to 9,600 hours. If this character were to study 1 hour per day under a tutor, that would be a bit over 26 years. If they have to self-study, that would take twice as long, and be worth about 52 years. So, that seems plausible right? Take an IQ 15 character learning that same skill (I used Physician by the by for this example) the hours required would be 5,600 hours. Spending 1 hour per day with a teacher, our physician would require only about 15 years, or a bit over 30 through self study.

That is to reach "History's BEST" per the guidelines you show below.

Now for the bad news if you will...

Any player running his character in the game, can allocate earned experience points towards their skill used in game, and reach their "History's Best" level while only spending at most, a year's time in game play. If a player earns on average, 3 experience per game session, and plays twice a month, that's 6 points per month, 72 points per year. That's more than enough to gain the 48 points for an individual with a 10 stat, to raise it to a skill 21 - and in less time than 15 to 26 years. ;)

There is one saving grace in all of this however. That is the adage "Jack of all trades, master of none". GURPS has so many skills to invest in, that having a breadth of knowledge almost creates a difficulty in mastering any given skill to that high a level. A fun bumper sticker to have for GURPS might be "So many skills, so few experience points" or something to that vein.

For now, I'm glad you took the time consolidate the information into one pithy paragraph. I'm not certain that I'd go with the attributes listing for my game worlds, but I would say that anyone with an attribute higher than 12 is going to be noticed unless the character in question makes an effort to hide their exceptionalism.

As a side note? Take note of the fact that "Talents" can raise the relative value of any given stat in ways not listed on your chart. For instance? Imagine having an attribute at 14, but also having a +4 Talent that contains 9 skills. That is functionally an Stat rated at not 14 with respect to an attribute, but functionally an 18. So, 80 points in IQ (for instance) plus 40 points in Talents, for a net investment of 120 of your 150 points - and you have a really potentially TALENTED individual whose skills start at 17 (in 9 skills) for a mere 200 hours worth of study time (1 character point).

using the guidelines you've collected in your first post as relates to "Normal people" is good. Just remember that player characters aren't really "normal"

;)

For the record? I once had a player who wanted to have an IQ 15 character with a level 4 talent in computer related skills. He balked at being placed in a situation in which (in this sci-fi campaign universe) where the corporations KNEW how good he was. When I mentioned to him that the Corporations would be on the lookout for anyone with talent in certain skills, and would learn of such talent as the kid grew up (corporate sponsorship of schools, scholarship testing programs, aid for the poor who meet the criteria) the player realized "Darn!" and made an effort to hide his capabilities. And that, only because he had an NPC uncle who was looking out for his interests early on and helped to mask his true abilities. It didn't save his skin in the end however, because his capabilities required that any teacher he'd want, had to have a skill higher than his, and THAT was the sticking point.

Good luck with this thread this time around. :)

Hi there Hal and nice to have you around,

I have previously used the 200 hours/CP system, but at the end I decided to stick to the 2.5 CP/year one (closely related to GURPS 3e) which can raise up to 18 CP/year with advantages such as Doesn´t Sleep, Reduced Consumption, Single-Minded, Accelerated Learning 2 and Elite Schooling (all of them together cover up to 14.25 CP/year, with VR Deep Learning increasing it up to 18 CP/year).

For any average character lacking all of these advantages, this would mean that to learn an average skill at Attribute +5 the character is going to need eight years.

I need to point out how I do not grant any points for playing sessions because I consider that the fun obtained by gaming is sufficiently rewarding.

I also need to point out how I allow Talents up to level 5 (just like the intellect, for example) but they do not reduce the learning or training time or pay off for reaction bonuses, instead granting special bonuses such as reduce TL and familiarity penalties for gear examined for an hour with a covered skill or bonus in Contests against attempts to perpetrate a cover-up.

I appreciate your contribution Hal, thank you very much.

[hal]

for what it is worth, having another set of eyes looking at one's house rules, often helps a person to refine their house rules to where they can be confident that it reflects what they really want, instead of "oh darn, I didn't think of that!" and then having to fix it later on. ;)

I call it egg on face kind of situations. As GM, you spot something you don't like, and you try to fix it, only to run into the Domino theory, where what you changed didn't only affect that which you wanted, but also affects other things.

And yes, like you, the idea of having experience points NOT be the end all or be all of why one adventures, creeps in when I forget to award character points at the end of a session or even a few sessions!

If I might suggest? See if you can score a copy of 2nd or 3rd edition of RUNEQUEST. There, they have what I consider a really NICE experience system.

Simply put? Each time you successfully achieve the use of a given skill - you are awarded an experience check. It doesn't matter if you succeed once or ten times during a session, it only matters that you succeeded. After the adventure or session is done, you resolve the experience checks as follows:

Roll against your current skill level. If your modified skill roll is higher than your current skill, you improve. If your roll is equal to or less than your current skill, the experience of what you did only reinforces what you actively already know - and the skill does not improve.

Since the game is a percentile based game, the "bonus" to your rolls is equal to your attribute (IQ or some such, I forget now and would have to reread the rules again). Any skill in excess of 100, is treated as 100. So, you always have a chance of improving even once you reach a skill 100+. The odds however, are low that you will improve it all that often once it starts getting high enough.

And here's the other thing. In order to "Study" to get an experience check? You have to study for a number of hours equal to your current skill level. Even after studying for those hours? You still run the risk of NOT improving your skill by rolling equal to or under what your current skill is now.

Now, if it looks as though I'm advocating that you use a different game system than GURPS, be aware of the following:

I started gaming back in 1978 (was the single leading cause of my GPA dropping in College). I went through the virtual wasteland of multiple different game systems (some fun, some not so fun) before the year 1986. When MAN TO MAN came out, I quickly hooked it up with THE ARCANUM (for its magic spells system) and had a LOT of fun with that. When GURPS came out, I stuck with it, for what is now going on what, 32 years? So, no, I'm not advocating for other systems per se. But what I will do is suggest that you can always houserule other game concepts into your own GURPS - and make it something you want to stick with for another 32 years. Me? I'm just worried that I can't take GURPS with me when I hit the Nursing homes some 20 years from now.

*teasing grin*

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

I have previously used the 200 hours/CP system, but at the end I decided to stick to the 2.5 CP/year one (closely related to GURPS 3e) which can raise up to 18 CP/year with advantages such as Doesn´t Sleep, Reduced Consumption, Single-Minded, Accelerated Learning 2 and Elite Schooling (all of them together cover up to 14.25 CP/year, with VR Deep Learning increasing it up to 18 CP/year).

Is this meant to model a flat rate of gain for most people or a maximum of what can be gained?


I personally would work off of a diminishing returns model, at least for the average Joe. We learn a lot during certain parts of our lives, and then we slow down. Generally. There are exceptions, but I would consider them exceptions, not the rule.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I personally would work off of a diminishing returns model, at least for the average Joe. We learn a lot during certain parts of our lives, and then we slow down. Generally. There are exceptions, but I would consider them exceptions, not the rule.

If I wanted a version of GURPS that treated capabilities more realistically (in the literary genre sense of "realism"; I'm not certifying exact fit to anthropometric data), I would make two changes: first, the cutoff where raising a stat didn't add to your defaults would be 16, not 20; second, skill costs per level wouldn't plateau at 4, but would continue to double. So if you had DX 16, an Average skill would cost 1 point for skill 15, 2 points for 16, 4 points for 17, 8 points for 18, 16 points for 19, and 32 points for 20. I don't suppose anyone would go much past 32 points, and most people would stop at 8, most likely.

Note that I'm not saying it's "wrong" to have a campaign with unrealistic capabilities. I'd be fine with a cinematic/epic/supers campaign allowing the "Super Attribute" modifier (+25%) for stats high than 16 to let them provide improved defaults, if I were using these variant rules.

[hal]

Originally Posted by whswhs

If I wanted a version of GURPS that treated capabilities more realistically (in the literary genre sense of "realism"; I'm not certifying exact fit to anthropometric data), I would make two changes: first, the cutoff where raising a stat didn't add to your defaults would be 16, not 20; second, skill costs per level wouldn't plateau at 4, but would continue to double. So if you had DX 16, an Average skill would cost 1 point for skill 15, 2 points for 16, 4 points for 17, 8 points for 18, 16 points for 19, and 32 points for 20. I don't suppose anyone would go much past 32 points, and most people would stop at 8, most likely.

Note that I'm not saying it's "wrong" to have a campaign with unrealistic capabilities. I'd be fine with a cinematic/epic/supers campaign allowing the "Super Attribute" modifier (+25%) for stats high than 16 to let them provide improved defaults, if I were using these variant rules.

and that's the beauty of the Forums in my eyes. Various ideas float about where it is specified "Hey, this is what I'd do to fix this thing I don't like".

Me? I'd prefer to set the cap at 15 for only one reason - I hate seeing any default skill to IQ start at a professional level (ie skill 12). Ideally? I'd like to keep it so that the default caps can never take a skill to higher than a 10 so that during "easy times with little or no stress involved" the individual who hasn't tried his hand at the task, isn't succeeding half the time, or 90% if taking longer to finish the task. But that's just me thinking in terms of realism <shrug>

[cptbutton]

At the other end, I recall a Kromm post about what it meant to have various stats at 0, but couldn't find it with the search. Anyone recall where it was?

[hal]

Originally Posted by cptbutton

At the other end, I recall a Kromm post about what it meant to have various stats at 0, but couldn't find it with the search. Anyone recall where it was?

You'd have to give us a little more information if we're to use Google to search for a possible response to your question.

;)

[Kromm]

This FAQ entry may help.