Normal Protoganists versus Superhuman Antagonists

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I do not know if a battalion works against antagonists with supernatural powers and point budgets of 500+ points (and it definitely does not work against antagonists with supernatural powers and point budgets of 1000+ points). At that point level, the members of the battalions should either not be able to detect the antagonist or should be making fright checks at a minimum of a -10 penalty (meaning that all of the members of a battalion fail automatically their fright check when they hear or see the antagonist, the only question is how badly do they fail). I generally use sight, as anyone seeing the antagonist in a live video feed when Terror is active must also make a fright check, though using hearing-base terror is also possible through a live audio broadcast (unless modified with Active or Presence).

Unfortunately, it is not the players who lead the battalion, the battalion is actually led by the antagonist and permanently acting as its personal security force (Good investion for 75-100 CPs is not it? Just saying).

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by ericthered

If I look at a group of characters with 250 and a single character with 500 points, I expect the 250's to out perform the loner is almost every aspect. Why? specialization. The 500 point character has a very limited budget to beat the wealth, combative power, social and technical skills, and exotic powers of a bunch of 250 point characters. The 500 may be good in all of those categories, and he may beat the alliance in some of the categories, but he's going to be weaker in more of those categories than he is stronger.

This is basically the plot of Dracula; it's the story of a heroic feudal aristocrat being defeated by a joint stock company with advanced technology and organization—an English lord, an English solicitor and his wife, an English physician, a Dutch physician, and an American adventurer, practically a perfect cross section of the international bourgeoisie.

[AlexanderHowl]

I think that breaks down at 750 points though, as a 750 point character will be better at everything than a group of five 250 point characters. At 750 points, an antagonist can be a 'perfect' human, allowing them to have ST 20, DX 20, I 20, and HT 20, as it 'only' costs them 600 points. With suitable cinematic advantages and cinematic skills, they do not even need superhuman abilities to beat five 250 point characters.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

So, I was wondering how people dealt with sending 250-point normal protagonists (PCs) against 500-point superhuman antagonists (NPCs)? In general, I think that five 250-point normal PCs are capable of taking out a 500-point NPCs with difficulty if they have a good plan and a decent amount of luck. In any case, I do not think that the fight between the PCs and the NPCs should be easy when there are such discrepancies in capabilities (and it should probably be the focus of an adventure or even a campaign).

Point values don't determine how difficult a fight is. Whether the target has an effective defense against the PCs, one that works against multiple attacks at once, does.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

If as GMs we must subject ourselves to all those limitations then that NPC is dead before we start. The only real question that remains to be asked is how long we want it to last (what we will achieve as long as we keep it away from the human crushers that will shatter it in less than a minute).

Not dead... defeated. There is a big difference. And yes, every single antagonist in my games eventually ends up defeated, at least in part. I think that's entirely normal. Not universal, but normal. If I wanted to routinely pull TPK's, I'd be playing a different game.

The above tends to tied your hands a lot more when attacking PC's as opposed to defending. You have more options for giving NPC's escape routes. and yes, part of the art of being a good GM is timing when the big bad will go down.

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Unfortunately, it is not the players who lead the battalion, the battalion is actually led by the antagonist and permanently acting as its personal security force (Good investion for 75-100 CPs is not it? Just saying).

Nothing says a player can't be at the head of the local military division. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and 100 CP's is well within the PC's budget. Most people don't play that way, but that's genre convention. As I said, the target can't beat the PC's at every thing when its 500 vs. five 250's.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I think that breaks down at 750 points though, as a 750 point character will be better at everything than a group of five 250 point characters. At 750 points, an antagonist can be a 'perfect' human, allowing them to have ST 20, DX 20, I 20, and HT 20, as it 'only' costs them 600 points. With suitable cinematic advantages and cinematic skills, they do not even need superhuman abilities to beat five 250 point characters.

750 is high enough to start beating all the PC's scores, maybe, but once again it all depends on how things are built. you can burn 750 points on strength pretty quickly and be comparatively vulnerable, or leave a gaping hole for the PC's to exploit with a disadvantage. But generally, 750 is in a better position to single handedly fend off the party. Better. Context is everything here.

[AlexanderHowl]

Luck also plays a roll though. Especially in GURPS, a critical success on a brain hit can take out practically any human scale individual (especially if it followed an Affliction that took out an opponent's special defenses). I have seen a party of 500 point characters take out a 2,000 point character during the first turn of combat because of bad luck on my part and good luck on theirs.

One of the problems that can occur with a high point supernatural villain is the intersection of Compartmentalized Brain, Duplication, Extra Attack, and abilities that take advantage of the three of them. For example, a 500 point villain with Compartmentalized Brain 2 [100], Duplication 2 (No Sympathetic Injury, +20%) [84], and Extra Attack 2 (Multi-Strike, +20%) [60] can effectively make six mental attacks and nine physical ettacks per turn. An unprepared group of five 250 point characters might find themselves effectively ungunned, even though they outnumber the enemy 5:1.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I think that breaks down at 750 points though, as a 750 point character will be better at everything than a group of five 250 point characters. At 750 points, an antagonist can be a 'perfect' human, allowing them to have ST 20, DX 20, I 20, and HT 20, as it 'only' costs them 600 points. With suitable cinematic advantages and cinematic skills, they do not even need superhuman abilities to beat five 250 point characters.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Point values don't determine how difficult a fight is. Whether the target has an effective defense against the PCs, one that works against multiple attacks at once, does.

Point values are more or less irrelevant in this context. Rank 8 costs [40] points and can bring command of a significant part of the US military. Duty is worth negative points and can carry with it access to a stealth bomber or a missile submarine while performing that Duty.

I like high point values, primarily because that allows for characters with highly detailed, point-inefficient backgrounds, where theoretically possible (if implausibly rare) characters are experts in many fields, each of which they have studied for thousands of hours, instead of point-efficiently having actual superpowered IQ and DX and perhaps Modular Ability for a few skills, as well as the few skills used every session raised to Attribute+2 or so.

But I realise that it will cost the merest fraction of the point budget of the PCs to make NPC threats that challenge them, because these only have to spend their points on traits relevant to their role in the game.

A 500 point character can be a character from a comic book that has no relationship with reality in any form or it can be a realistic former Special Forces officer who runs a successful contractor company. A 100 point character with access to any trait a player wants can easily defeat the latter, but that's because points aren't a measure of combat power. They're a measure of how desirable a given trait is to the average player.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Point values don't determine how difficult a fight is. Whether the target has an effective defense against the PCs, one that works against multiple attacks at once, does.

True that^^^. If 250 points don't include some way to survive gunfire, for ex, an encounter with even one 25-point guy with a pistol and a few points in using it effectively is likely to go badly for him.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

True that^^^. If 250 points don't include some way to survive gunfire, for ex, an encounter with even one 25-point guy with a pistol and a few points in using it effectively is likely to go badly for him.

Yes... my 1K point psychic in a Supers game learned that the hard way... his armor had one flaw, impaling damage cut through it like butter and we faced down against enemies with flechette rifles that knew I was a master mind controller.... one shot dead. Before I even got to finish telling them to drop their weapons and peacefully surrender.


Sigh.

[Boomerang]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

So, I was wondering how people dealt with sending 250-point normal protagonists (PCs) against 500-point superhuman antagonists (NPCs)? In general, I think that five 250-point normal PCs are capable of taking out a 500-point NPCs with difficulty if they have a good plan and a decent amount of luck. In any case, I do not think that the fight between the PCs and the NPCs should be easy when there are such discrepancies in capabilities (and it should probably be the focus of an adventure or even a campaign).

I ran a super-villain thug against mundane soldiers at the early stage of acquiring their own powers who were armed with modern weapons. The super-villain had:

Really high hit points.
Good DR, but not high enough to completely block an M16.
Injury tolerance (homogenous)
Warp power (with limited range)
Altered time rate
Really weak (low damage) innate attack with a good armour divisor.

After trying guns and grenades, the PCs eventually took him down with a rocket launcher. I think two of the six PCs were knocked unconscious but everyone survived.