grappling a flier

[Ack]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Please read my (long) post. Basically, someone with ST 200 normally weighs 500 tons (1,000,000 lbs.), and can claim such a weight "for free." To move at all with 500 tons, you'll need ST 708. If this ST 200 monster weighs less than 500 tons, then you'll need less ST . . . but he should get some benefit to compensate. For instance, if he weighs just a ton, he might function as only ST 25 for opposing grapples, but the GM should probably rule that since his BL 8,000 is four times his weight in 1G, he can use ST/4 instead of Basic Move for jumps, and still be at No Encumbrance in a 4G gravity field . . . and the GM should also be hitting him with falling and collision damage for HP 25, not HP 200.

Wait ... so our one-ton 200-ST character should only count as ST 25 for grapples? Awesome. Because my 160 lb character has 75 ST.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

First, I must apologize, because it so happens that things I say can be read as a negative assessment of TG.

No problem. I don't see why anyone would take a series of posts pointing out edge cases where the rules supposedly don't work as a negative assessment. :-)

I'm somewhat confused about what exactly TG is striving to achieve. Supposedly getting rid of ST rolls, and yet Pickup is a roll of HT vs. ST.

As I've said before, I asked to get rid of a ST roll for the attacker in this one case, since we had a nifty ST-to-Weight table we could leverage for this, and we didn't want to double-count. On the defender's side, though, I thought about my strong partners, and they can do a LOT using their ST to interfere with my ability to lift them.

Pickups, as noted on p. 24, are an application of Shoving People Around, and that rule allows defending with ST. As Kromm pointed out upthread, you PAY for that ability when you pay for ST. Ergo, removing it without suggesting a way to "get those points back" is uncool.

As part of this discussion, I can think of another way to do this from the defender. And a few other concepts that have to do with superheroes that come to mind.

But the hot air balloon question is not relvant, since objects use the object rules and Ready maneuvers from basic, not a contest. We explicitly discussed this (I checked my notes) and you don't use COMBAT rules for things not fighting back.

supposedly privileging realism over gamism (thus throwing out the 'You also get +1 to hit when you grapple per +1 SM advantage you have over your target' @B402, making SM even more of a Disadvantage unless it comes with above-average ST),

And replacing it with +1 to DX (and thus to grapple) and +15% to ST due to leverage, and providing even huger bonuses to mass-based moves if you're big and heavy? You're not going to convince me this is anything other than a good thing, sorry.

and yet apparently grappling a Hot Air Balloon is sufficient to prevent it from lifting the grappler, since it doesn't have twice the ST of the grappler. (In fact, I have no idea how can a grappler realistically prevent a liftoff of anything unless he has Clinging - just how does he apply more of his ST downward than he has weight? Now, when he can anchor himself to some heavier object using prehensile toes, that's another story.)

This is a rather poor analogy, since what would happen here is that, since the grappler isn't in combat with the balloon, he'd grab it, and the balloon would simply lift him if it's got the payload to do so.

The assumption is combat with a resisting foe is different than with an object, not the least of which because the "helpless" party can easily be a PC that has paid points with certain value and assumptions under the rules. Those values and assumptions are important and need to be respected. You want to lift that strong character? You better find a way to make him not able to use his ST to foil you. I suggest a blow to the head.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

No problem. I don't see why anyone would take a series of posts pointing out edge cases where the rules supposedly don't work as a negative assessment. :-)

Yeah, time for the Pyscho Kitty vs. Generic Dave test, I think. :)

But the hot air balloon question is not relvant, since objects use the object rules and Ready maneuvers from basic, not a contest. We explicitly discussed this (I checked my notes) and you don't use COMBAT rules for things not fighting back.

What about a living gasbag creature?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

As I've said before, I asked to get rid of a ST roll for the attacker in this one case, since we had a nifty ST-to-Weight table we could leverage for this, and we didn't want to double-count. On the defender's side, though, I thought about my strong partners, and they can do a LOT using their ST to interfere with my ability to lift them.

The problem with use of ST to interfere seems to be very similar to one of the reasons you wanted to get rid of ST rolls in the first place: a fight between two ST200, skill 15 characters should be the same as a fight between two ST1, skill 15 characters. But the former will want to roll ST, while the latter will want to roll skill. And I'm not sure if there's a method for normalising ST that is fast, elegant and makes physical sense.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Pickups, as noted on p. 24, are an application of Shoving People Around, and that rule allows defending with ST. As Kromm pointed out upthread, you PAY for that ability when you pay for ST. Ergo, removing it without suggesting a way to "get those points back" is uncool.

Agree, picking a stronger opponent is harder, but I get the impression (in my limited experience) that much of the difficulty is from the fact that the strong opponent also very heavy relative to my BL. He pushes and pulls, moving his centre of mass in such a way that I have to deal with the worst possible leverage. Succeeding at that when I lift a 200lb guy is indeed all but guaranteed to foil my attempts to lift him. But if my opponent is Champion Chimp or Mighty Mouse (of the same ST), then even the worst-case leverage (that is still a proper grapple) is unlikely to make him an 'immovable object'.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

But the hot air balloon question is not relvant, since objects use the object rules and Ready maneuvers from basic, not a contest. We explicitly discussed this (I checked my notes) and you don't use COMBAT rules for things not fighting back.

I suppose this something we disagree on. I think it should be equally difficult to stop a ST0 levitating psychic blueberry muffin, a lighter-than-air gasbag-person whose ST got afflicted to zero, and a ST0 hot air balloon (assuming they have the same rope attached, or whatever, to make grips equal, and same Air Move Upward).

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

And replacing it with +1 to DX (and thus to grapple) and +15% to ST due to leverage, and providing even huger bonuses to mass-based moves if you're big and heavy? You're not going to convince me this is anything other than a good thing, sorry.

The +1 DX and +15% ST will not be relevant if you can't make the first roll (which no longer enjoys the bonus). As I said before, I understand it from the realism-, stop-catching-houseflies-with-chopsticks PoV, but from a gamist PoV, it further undermines the idea of SM as a 0-pt Feature.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Mirtai

But what if that 40 pound weight was twice your size, more than twice as strong as you, and trying to shove your face into the dirt?

You're applying acceleration to try and lift off, and he uses his greater strength and mass to redirect you into the ground. You might do yourself some damage trying though.

Actual physics says there's simply no way that the big heavy can even try to stop you unless they are hanging onto the ground somehow.

Assuming the heavy is standing like a normal person, rather than having their feet firmly embedded in a building foundation or something, the only force keeping them on the ground is their weight. If they try to push something else down with more force than that they lift themselves into the air. (And push themselves away from the subject, so this stops at arm's length.)

Obviously if you're suspending actual physics in favor of some intuition of comic book physics it might work, depending on what that intuition is. Alternatively if the big character can somehow keep the flier from even knowing what direction to fly in that might preclude flying away, though I can't think of any rules to leverage for twirling your victim like a baton to disorient them.

[Ack]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Actual physics says there's simply no way that the big heavy can even try to stop you unless they are hanging onto the ground somehow.

Assuming the heavy is standing like a normal person, rather than having their feet firmly embedded in a building foundation or something, the only force keeping them on the ground is their weight. If they try to push something else down with more force than that they lift themselves into the air. (And push themselves away from the subject, so this stops at arm's length.)

Obviously if you're suspending actual physics in favor of some intuition of comic book physics it might work, depending on what that intuition is. Alternatively if the big character can somehow keep the flier from even knowing what direction to fly in that might preclude flying away, though I can't think of any rules to leverage for twirling your victim like a baton to disorient them.

This has been my point all along.

Except that apparently it's not comic book intuition being used, it's some variation of game-balance, repaying people for spending big on ST without having the extra weight to go with it. Even though SM is actually free of charge.

[Ack]

Two more questions:

If Character B had a one-ton block of quick-setting concrete poured about him so that only his head stuck out and he was placed in the open, would he be able to fly away as per normal, even though he's being held more firmly than in any possible grapple?


And last but not least; what's the limitation value for "My ST does not prevent fliers I grapple from flying away"? Inquiring minds want to know. I will be taking it on all my characters from now on.

IMO, being able to prevent fliers from leaving by simply grappling them should be an enhancement to your ST.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Ack

And last but not least; what's the limitation value for "My ST does not prevent fliers I grapple from flying away"? Inquiring minds want to know. I will be taking it on all my characters from now on.

It comes with being lighter than your ST would otherwise suggest, and is balanced out by taking less damage than your ST would otherwise suggest in a collision.

[Mathulhu]

I think all your problems are coming from not defining the accepted physics of the setting before you start.


>If Character B had a one-ton block of quick-setting concrete poured about him so that only his head stuck out and he was placed in the open, would he be able to fly away as per normal, even though he's being held more firmly than in any possible grapple?


I don't know, ask your GM, what does the character require to be allowed to fly?
In my game if it is normal superman flight with no limits then I would let the character fly.

>And last but not least; what's the limitation value for "My ST does not prevent fliers I grapple from flying away"? Inquiring minds want to know. I will be taking it on all my characters from now on.


I don't know, ask your GM.
I have never run a supers campaign in GURPS, my mind set is not right for it, all the games I've run have been rooted in relatively normal physics.
St 200 and 1 ton of weight, St 60 and 160lb in weight violate physics just as much as the grapple induced inability to fly does. So something hinky is going on anyway more hinky-ness is no more of a problem.


>IMO, being able to prevent fliers from leaving by simply grappling them should be an enhancement to your ST.


In my game if you have the strength to carry someone and a form of flight that will let you fly despite outside influence then you can fly. The strong person can still mess you about with locks and wrenching limbs and the rest, but you have control over where that happens, unless shock or stunning kicks in.


There is only one rule, Rule Zero, everything else is guidelines.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Ack

IMO, being able to prevent fliers from leaving by simply grappling them should be an enhancement to your ST.

The default expectation is that ST (and HP) come with corresponding mass. (It also simultaneously is that characters have no obligation to match their stats to their weight.) GURPS rules, especially ones not crafted with special attention to such considerations, tend to casually proxy ST and inanimate object HP as a mass stat.

If taken straight, GURPS basically (and particularly GURPS Basic Set) expects an ST 200 character to be 500 tons or so. Not a 250-pound guy in spandex. The latter possibility is, of course, addressed in places.