Machine Control/TL spell - Magic176

[PBarone714]

Can a Mage use the Machine Control spell on a computer in order to make the computer do Netrunning? My GM says that Machine Control controls the computer Hardware, but not the software. I say that from the definition of what a Machine is on Magic175, "A machine is a tool that in some way
uses, stores, or transforms power in order to do its job," that a computer is a machine that has both hardware and software, and that the Machine Control spell can control both a computer's hardware AND software, and so, yes, a mage should be able to use the Machine Control spell to control a computer to perform netrunning -- without the need for a physical cyber jack hookup.

What do YOU think? Am I right, or is my GM right?

Another point: In both Psionic Powers (4th ed) and Psionics
(3rd ed), there is a Cyberpsi Power and skills that allow a psi to mentally operate and get data from a computer. If there is an ability for a psi to mentally interface with a computer, there should also be a corresponding way for a mage to mentally connect with and control a computer to perform Netrunning.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by PBarone714

What do YOU think? Am I right, or is my GM right?

Being the GM's game, he (or she) sets what the spell can and cannot do. Arguably more importantly, the GM sets what Netrunning is - in most settings, Netrunning isn't just a computer going online with a person at the controls, but rather is a means of projecting the user's consciousness onto the Net. In that case, even if Machine Control allows direct software control, it's not going to be usable for Netrunning, because computers can't do Netrunning. In such a setting, using Machine Control to Netrun without physical hookups is equivalent to using Machine Control to have your car drive down the street while you stay at home, yet somehow have this transport your down the street.

[PBarone714]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Being the GM's game, he (or she) sets what the spell can and cannot do. Arguably more importantly, the GM sets what Netrunning is - in most settings, Netrunning isn't just a computer going online with a person at the controls, but rather is a means of projecting the user's consciousness onto the Net. In that case, even if Machine Control allows direct software control, it's not going to be usable for Netrunning, because computers can't do Netrunning. In such a setting, using Machine Control to Netrun without physical hookups is equivalent to using Machine Control to have your car drive down the street while you stay at home, yet somehow have this transport your down the street.

What do you mean, "computers can't do Netrunning???" We are using the 4th ed. Netrunning rules described in Pyramid 3-21 (Cyberpunk). If you can't use a COMPUTER to do Netrunning, what kind of a machine does a console cowboy use for that???

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by PBarone714

What do you mean, "computers can't do Netrunning???" We are using the 4th ed. Netrunning rules described in Pyramid 3-21 (Cyberpunk). If you can't use a COMPUTER to do Netrunning, what kind of a machine does a console cowboy use for that???

I don't have that issue of Pyramid, but most depictions I've seen of Netrunning or similar involve using the computer as a vehicle of sorts to either transfer or project the character's mind into cyberspace. That doesn't work if it can't connect to your mind in some way. If it just lets you manipulate a pre-made avatar in some sort of VR cyberspace, then software control would indeed let you do it from any computer currently capable of it. Of course, you'll still run afoul of the fact that the GM's word is final when it comes to the way magic works in his/her campaign.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by PBarone714

Can a Mage use the Machine Control spell on a computer in order to make the computer do Netrunning? My GM says that Machine Control controls the computer Hardware, but not the software. I say that from the definition of what a Machine is on Magic175, "A machine is a tool that in some way
uses, stores, or transforms power in order to do its job," that a computer is a machine that has both hardware and software, and that the Machine Control spell can control both a computer's hardware AND software, and so, yes, a mage should be able to use the Machine Control spell to control a computer to perform netrunning -- without the need for a physical cyber jack hookup.

What do YOU think? Am I right, or is my GM right?

.

Well obviously I think you're both wrong.

I kid, kid.

Sort of. Here's the thing. Machine control can't make a machine do a thing that machine can't do. Is it a machine that can netrun on its own? No? Then you can't tell it to. I could use Machine Control to get my computer to display files and run programs even if my keyboard is busted because those are things my computer is equipped to do. I could do it even if it was password locked and I didn't know the password. But it has no hacking tools and it can't do anything that requires actual independent thinking.

[PBarone714]

According to Pyramid 3-21, p. 5:
"COMPUTERS
"Ultra-tech computers (Ultra-Tech, pp. 21-26) are both
smaller and faster than modern systems . . . a tiny TL9 computer
(wearable, implant, etc.) is as powerful as a contemporary
desktop, while cutting-edge personal computers can rival
TL8 megacomputers. On the other end, the mainframes and
larger systems that a hacker is likely to be going up against
can reach sufficient Complexity to run full, volitional AI and
scores of defensive programs.
Furthermore, with multiple terabytes of drive space available
on even the smallest systems, storage capacity should
only come up if the hacker needs to hold or transfer large
amounts of data. Assume that programs take up negligible
space in comparison to the computer’s total capacity."

They use regular computers from UltraTech. They add to this gear, like a HUD or visor and VR gloves, but netrunning can still be achieved by means of a keyboard and mo0use terminal.

[whswhs]

The way I take Machine Control is this: Whatever a normal person, with access to the machine (keys for a car, a password for a phone, whatever) could do with the machine by operating the controls, you can do by willing the machine to do that thing. If the machine can't do it, you can't make it do it.

However, Machine Control doesn't give you psychic or magical awareness of what the machine is "seeing." If you're controlling a camera, you don't see the image it's transmitting, unless you are looking at a screen that displays that image. To get that benefit, you would have to not merely control the machine, but possess it. I think there's a spell for that, too, but I don't have GURPS Magic at hand.

[pestigor]

I just read Machine Control
I agree with whswhs and would add that that upon reading, I get the impresion that it would be like mentally controlling the keyboard and mouse. You would have to see the monitor in order to do anything that required attention and you would have to maintain the mana cost 6 to start and 3 per minute. The spell doesn't effect a machine with an IQ above 6 so telling an AI to do something involving netrunning with an IQ of 6 or less isn't going to go well.

The main thing though is that if this is something integral to your character it needs to be discussed with the GM before hand and worked out before a single die is rolled because even if the whole Gurps board thinks you're right, it's the GM's game and he can run it how he chooses...citing rulings instead of figuring out WITH the GM how to get the effect you want isn't going to go over very well. The players and GM should be on the same page with how non-hidden things work in a campaign.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by pestigor

The main thing though is that if this is something integral to your character it needs to be discussed with the GM before hand and worked out before a single die is rolled

Definitely that one. Some GMs (me for example) consider the Tech college so broken they might not even allow the spell, or at least substantially edit it.

It's also worth noting that "netrunning" is a fantasy convention as much as magic is, and might not even exist in the same setting. And if it does exist, the GM may have already defined how you acquire the ability to do it. If he has and it costs more character points than the spells, he probably *should* forbid the spells from doing it to be fair to players who paid for it through the non-spell route.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by PBarone714

They use regular computers from UltraTech. They add to this gear, like a HUD or visor and VR gloves, but netrunning can still be achieved by means of a keyboard and mo0use terminal.

If "netrunning" is basically just a fancy term for "using the internet," indeed software control would do it. Hardware control should allow you to do it as well, although the GM would be justified in requiring the computer to have the relevant peripherals installed (you can use the spell to control the keyboard and mouse). As others have noted, you'll need some sort of output so you can tell what's going on; it's technically possible to use a computer you're extremely familiar with "blind" (I've had to do it a few times in the past when I messed up the resolution), but anything like netrunning is pretty much a no-go in that case.

Of course, the GM might rule that computers and their peripherals don't count as "machines" for purposes of the spell, in which case it would be appropriate for him to introduce a Control Computer spell. Or not, if he doesn't want magic to be able to control computers at all.