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Old 01-07-2018, 12:14 PM   #241
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

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Originally Posted by pyratejohn View Post
Back in the late '70s my expectations were that I'd someday see... The Space Trip: In the Starship...? Forty years later I'd love to see it (and more importantly, fork over my hard earned cash!) as part of the reboot.

The nuts and bolts of this are I expect to see TFT as a Kickstarter. I'm VERY picking about Kickstarters, but if this KS were to include reprints of the original Micros, along with a hardback or boxed set of TFT, and with stretch goals of: dungeon tiles, outdoor tiles, MicroQuest map tiles, heavy cardstock counters or stand-ups, a bestiary, Tollenkar's Lair, a Cidri campaign book, a Space Trip rulebook, and a Western rulebook, I'd be in for $150 or $200.
Honestly, the same here. I was in to Designer's Edition Ogre to the tune of over $300, and for a complete TFT I'd go substantially higher.

And, equally honestly, I think TFT is an excellent mechanism to explore alternate genres in a very simple and robust fashion. Having said that however, I can't imagine that Steve Jackson Games would set up a second system that directly competes with GURPS in it's intended (and specifically designed -- unlike TFT) role. In many ways it's bad enough that it will directly compete with Dungeon Fantasy (indeed, the reason I heavily backed Dungeon Fantasy was because I was hoping for something closer to TFT that I could work with). Now arguably, DF is a much crunchier version of fantasy than TFT, and that will definitely allow it to compete for a certain share of gamers in it's niche, but I suspect that the two (DF and TFT) will actually hurt each other's sales to some extent over time. So there's more than just the possibility that you CAN do something at stake for SJGs here -- there's also the question of SHOULD you. I suspect that many ideas are up in the air both among us, and over at SJG right now, and the "good idea cut-off point" has not yet been reached, but as SJG firms up their plans a lot of things that are floating around right now will wind up in the wistful "might-have-been" category...
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Old 01-07-2018, 04:40 PM   #242
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

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Agreed - I would further point out that In The Labyrinth in the section on Artifacts explicitly gives rules for finding various modern technology items, including a .45 handgun. Being able to cover these kinds of things correctly is important, even if the game is set up to be Cidri focused.
That's a totally valid point -- and Security Station was set on Cidri!
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Old 01-07-2018, 05:29 PM   #243
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

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So I respectfully dissent. I think TFT can easily handle other genres and have had considerable fun doing exactly that. There’s a lot to be said for a game that allows you to create a character in a couple of minutes, contains plenty of detail and that has an engaging, simple and fast moving combat system. Those qualities are useful for any genre...except maybe sparkly, angst-ridden vampire genres (excuse me, “vampyre genres”).
I don't think the argument is that TFT couldn't be expanded to a generic system. The argument is: Why would SJG position a second product directly against an already existing one (generic RPG vs. generic RPG)? As is, they already have to carefully consider how to position TFT vs. Dungeon Fantasy (GURPS subset) -- nevermind the entire GURPS system!

If I were the one to make the call, I'd say that Dungeon Fantasy is -- as a GURPs related product -- for GMs that like to build and tinker and write their own backstories. Conversely, I'd say TFT should be for those who want more of the creative work done for them in advance. Think of how Chaosium handles CoC. Very specific. Lots of prewritten campaigns/one-shots. Of course, Chaosium has the advantage of Lovecraft, it's true. But... SJG has Hite/Fogio/Kostikyan (or can get them). It's a different kind of writing, and while some of this kind of creative output has been done by SJG in the past, I'm quite comfortable saying it hasn't been the company's forte (and it didn't need to be).

There is reason for optimism, however; there are a lot of areas in game design/manufacture that, though originally not part of the company's model, are now. Great companies are great because they adapt.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:27 PM   #244
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

Oooh, very good news!

SJG, while revisiting these rules, it would be nice if you can work out a balance flaw in the original. Minor flaw, we still enjoyed playing it —and I used the engine for a Super Hero version which was much easier to play than Champions!

We ran quite a number of Death [Laboratory] Tests: Fighters that started out with Max Dexterity lived longer and levelled-up much better than those that started with Max Strength. Max Strength characters died the quickest.
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Old 01-07-2018, 10:59 PM   #245
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

Is that a glitch, or just an observation? How did characters in the middle fare? I would not call either a max ST or a max DX character "optimized." Tell us more about the Science Death Test - I'm interested.
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Old 01-08-2018, 09:48 AM   #246
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

It's pretty easy to show, either with enough arena fights or just a relevant statistical analysis, that either extreme is similarly poor strategy (and that a 10/14 combatant is't much better).

One of the strengths of the game is that there is a surprisingly large trade-space where starting Melee characters (24 pts in ST+DX) are different from one another, and have advantages in various tactical situations and equipment match ups, but that none are fundamentally stronger across all or most situations. I've looked at this issue in some detail and am pretty confident this is true.
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Old 01-08-2018, 11:15 AM   #247
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

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I would not call either a max ST or a max DX character "optimized." Tell us more about the Science Death Test - I'm interested.
That was long ago in a college somewhat far away; I don't have our lab notes anymore. I do recall that the results were pretty clear-cut and linear after many trials. Max DX had the best chance of living the longest and continually levelling up. Max ST had the least chance. Mixed balance fell in the middle, with the higher DX end fairing better than the higher ST end. Best option was always to level-up DX before ST.

While the Max DX characters do little damage at first, living longer and levelling up, they steadily improve their ST and damage output.
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Old 01-08-2018, 11:33 AM   #248
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

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Originally Posted by Cat View Post
That was long ago in a college somewhat far away; I don't have our lab notes anymore. I do recall that the results were pretty clear-cut and linear after many trials. Max DX had the best chance of living the longest and continually levelling up. Max ST had the least chance. Mixed balance fell in the middle, with the higher DX end fairing better than the higher ST end. Best option was always to level-up DX before ST.

While the Max DX characters do little damage at first, living longer and levelling up, they steadily improve their ST and damage output.
That's probably true, especially if you follow the rules as written and allow the high DX low ST character to wear any armour they want to. This allows them to compensate to an extent for their low strength in terms of damage resistance. To be realistic, you'd need to be above average in strength (12+) to wear heavy armour effectively, as anyone who's tried it will tell you. I'd penalise weak characters for wearing such armour just as very strong characters get an advantage (Adv Melee). That would bring back the balance a bit more.
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Old 01-08-2018, 11:49 AM   #249
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

Another reminder to take rules issues to the Roleplaying in General group. Thanks.
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Old 01-08-2018, 11:52 AM   #250
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

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Originally Posted by Cat View Post
That was long ago in a college somewhat far away; I don't have our lab notes anymore. I do recall that the results were pretty clear-cut and linear after many trials. Max DX had the best chance of living the longest and continually levelling up. Max ST had the least chance. Mixed balance fell in the middle, with the higher DX end fairing better than the higher ST end. Best option was always to level-up DX before ST.

While the Max DX characters do little damage at first, living longer and levelling up, they steadily improve their ST and damage output.
It's a pity; I would have loved to have seen the statistical notes on that one.

My experience has been different -- as far as I can tell, it comes down to player style more than the specific attributes selected. High ST characters do better with a certain play style, while high DX characters do better with a different one. Admittedly, someone with an AdjDX of five doesn't stand much chance of winning if the other guy can inflict enough damage to penetrate his armor, but assuming you keep your AdjDx at about 8 or so, the human tank does okay...

I'd be interested in hearing about anything similar done with Wizard -- what do people see as the optimal trade-offs in that one?
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