The Tournament lance that wouldn't break in GURPS 4e

[hal]

Whimsical thread title to be sure, but it gets the point across I think.

The parameters of this "thought experiment" in applying the rules as written are:

A) Jousting tournament rules are such that each broken lance against an opponent during a run, counts as 1 point. The jouster with the most points wins the jousting match against the apponent.

B) In the event that a jouster is unhorsed without also unhorsing his own opponent, the joust is won by the one who was not unhorsed. If both are unhorsed, both receive 3 points. See A.

C) In the event of a tie score after three runs, contestants will be required to fight afoot with melee weapons to determine the winner of the current joust contest.

D) All knights will be wearing PLATE armor, not that silly mail armor used in the 10th through 13th centuries.

E) Only HEAVY warhorses will be used, not the light warhorses described as cavalry horses in GURPS CAMPAIGN. Heavy Warhorses are standard warhorses with a basic speed of 7, and a ST of 24.

Now, equip your knight with full plate armor from head to toe. Give him a medium shield. Give him a sword, and lance, along with a small knife in case he needs to cut himself free from tangled stirrups if the horse goes down badly. Let us not forget the great helm or even a barrel helm.

Ok, we're not done yet with this thought experiment. Did you remember to include the weight of the horseshoes, the bridle, stirrups, and war saddle?

OK, we're just about done here. If you want to include barding for the horse, feel free, but I'd recommend that you not, for you see...

The poor warhorse already has taken enough weight with the rider's own weight (assuming a ST 12 average weight of 180 lbs rider), his armor, his weapons, and his shield, not to mention the equestrian gear - that it's max speed is heavily encumbered at 5 hexes per turn. Per the GURPS rules, lance damage is equal to speed of horse x ST of horse all divided by 100. This works out to 24 x 5 or 120/100 or 1.2 dice of damage. Fractional damage of less than .25 is treated as 1d6-3. So - at a speed of 5, the warhorse delivers 2d6-3 damage. Add +3 damage for the lance itself, and we're up to a total of 2d6 damage. The max damage roll for such a lance will be 12 points of damage, which is less than the 15 required to break the lance.

Kinda funny how that works out, no?

[whthat]

But does that damage amount assume stationary target?

If it does you would have to add the move of the opponent to the speed and get 2.4 dice of damage. Also note that the calculation specifies that you should round down (B397). Given that the general melee weapons paragraph for cavalry weapons states:

If the mount's velocity is 7 or more relative to the foe, the attack has -1 to hit but +1 damage

(emphasis mine) I would assume that you carry it through to lance damage calculations.

This would give you a total damage of 2d +4 (+3 for the lance, +1 for speed).

But I could be completely off.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by hal

The poor warhorse already has taken enough weight with the rider's own weight (assuming a ST 12 average weight of 180 lbs rider), his armor, his weapons, and his shield, not to mention the equestrian gear - that it's max speed is heavily encumbered at 5 hexes per turn.

The horse ought to be at medium encumbrance. Otherwise it's not a destrier fit to carry the knight in question in the lists. Improved Move might not be out of the question either.

A $5,000 horse is not an accurate reflection of the 'typical' knight's destrier. Jousting was the Formula 1 of the times and the cost of the gear and horses reflected that.

And the 100+ lbs. DR 7 plate of the Basic Set is not historically accurate either. Wait for Low-Tech if you want to simulate historical jousting.

Originally Posted by hal

Per the GURPS rules, lance damage is equal to speed of horse x ST of horse all divided by 100. This works out to 24 x 5 or 120/100 or 1.2 dice of damage. Fractional damage of less than .25 is treated as 1d6-3. So - at a speed of 5, the warhorse delivers 2d6-3 damage. Add +3 damage for the lance itself, and we're up to a total of 2d6 damage. The max damage roll for such a lance will be 12 points of damage, which is less than the 15 required to break the lance.

Kinda funny how that works out, no?

Assuming you rode nags and had ahistorically heavy armour, you still need to add the relative velocities. And since the horses are ridden in a straight line on level ground, add +20% sprinting bonus.

Final damage is 3d+3 if we preserve fractions until the last step (which I think is the most accurate way to do it). That gives a 37.5% chance of breaking the lance, going up to 50% on a Committed Attack.

[hal]

Page 397 quoted in its entirety...

A couched lance’s damage depends on the mount’s mass and velocity. Work out damage for a collision between the mount and the target – (mount’s ST) x (distance moved last turn)/100 dice of damage, rounded down – and add the lance’s thrust/impaling bonus of +3. Example: A ST 25 warhorse charging at Move 8 inflicts 2d+3 impaling damage.

Following the math as specified with the rules does not include the speed of the target, but only the speed of the actual rider atop the horse that is the source of the attack.

ST 25 warhorse x 8 = 200/100 = 2d6. From there, the damage modifier of the lance is +3 for a final total of 2d6+3. Granted, the example failed to mention at a speed of 8, there is an additional +1 damage, but - that's the example in its fullest.

There is only ONE step where one rounds any results - and that is from the damage calculation of the step of speed x ST all divided by 100.

Again, note that I pointed out RULES AS WRITTEN, which precludes ANY material not as yet published (Unless SJGames wants to steal a march by publishing a quickie PDF for jousting stuff ahead of the main book!!!).

Note too, that I pointed out that the horse is the standard Heavy Warhorse for the purposes of this situation. Now, raise the Horse's ST from 24 up to 25, and the situation changes. A fully armored 180 lb warrior with full equipment for a jousting encounter, will encumber his warhorse to medium encumberance (instead of heavy).

GURPS CAMPAIGNS needs to upgrade the Warhorse from a ST 24 to ST 25 in order to handle a ST 12 warrior atop his horse (this assumes that most knights will have a ST to handle their Lance).

Now, recalculating from the example given, our Warhorse with an encumberance of medium, has a max speed of 8. Its new damage rating in fact, becomes equal to that given in the example - ie, (8 x 25)/100 +3 for the lance and +1 for speeds of 7+ for a final damage of 2d6+4.

Now, how often will a solidly struck blow with this lance break?

On rolls of 15-4, the odds are that it will break 3 times in 36 attempts, or rougly once every twelve solid hits. That works out to roughly 8% of the time. If you convert +4 damage to a full die, such that a lance does 3d6, this works out to the lance breaking only on rolls of 15+ on 3d6, which is only 9.3% of the time.

How often will a lance strike home solidly in GURPS? Depending on the caliber of the jousters themselves, the odds work out like this:

Attacker's skills all at 14, Defender's skills all at 12:

Attacker's Lance skill is 14, less the -1 for speed in excess of 7 (we could include the specialty skill bonus from GURPS MARTIAL ARTS that mitigates this, but I will keep it simple for those who don't have it as yet - GET THE BOOK! <g>). Base skill is 13, which hits roughly 83% of the time.

Defender's skill is 12 with Shield, so their base defense is 12/2+3+2 (skill + base + shield defensive bonus). Leaving out Combat reflexes - something a trained knight probably doesn't have if all their skills barely equal "professional", then his base defense roll will be 11. Making this a simpler process, any roll of a 9 or less automatically negates a lance hit, and any roll of 10+ either hits the shield of the defender (generating a solid hit on the shield) or it hits the defender themselves (generating a solid hit in the torso). This works out to roughly 50% of the time a potential hit (excluding crit successes!) will become a solid hit.

.83 x .5 x .08 = 0.0332 or 3.32 percent chance the lance will break PER joust encounter.

Now that is based upon a lance atop a horse with a ST 25. I checked to see at what point the equipment of the rider and the rider's weight of 180 lbs - will be only light encumberance instead of medium. This occurs when the horse has a ST of 30.

Now, I played with the numbers a little. A ST 25 warhorse with a basic speed of 8, will have a combined ST Speed calculation of 9 x 25 (medium encumberance for a speed of 16), for a total value of 2.25. This works out to 3d-3+3+1 or 3d+1 damage overall. The odds of the lance breaking under those conditions works out to a roll of 15-1 or 14+ on 3d6 or a 16.2% chance.

I have to wonder. Just as there are legacy issues of rules that made sense under GURPS 3e, that now don't make sense in GURPS 4e, if that rule of lances breaking at 15+ points shouldn't be re-examined in light of the damages that are achievable with the current rules.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The horse ought to be at medium encumbrance. Otherwise it's not a destrier fit to carry the knight in question in the lists. Improved Move might not be out of the question either.

Assuming you rode nags and had ahistorically heavy armour, you still need to add the relative velocities. And since the horses are ridden in a straight line on level ground, add +20% sprinting bonus.

Final damage is 3d+3 if we preserve fractions until the last step (which I think is the most accurate way to do it). That gives a 37.5% chance of breaking the lance, going up to 50% on a Committed Attack.

Mind you, I'm not arguing your assumptions, but talking strictly rules as written...

GURPS gives a bonus of .20% (sprint bonus as you called it) to the GURPS MOVE calculated not from the character's overall speed, but from their combat speed. A character whose move is 5.75, becomes 5 hexes of movement per turn in tactical combat. The 20% bonus (or +1 which ever is better) is only added to the tactical move, not the original 5.75. Same methodology would be used for horses. However, even with your contribution of the sprint bonus rule, a Speed 8 horse would have a movement of 9.6 - which translates to what, a 9 or 10? Best as I can figure, it translates to 9, much as 5.75 translates to a movement of 5 in GURPS for tactical movement. I may be wrong on this. But be as that may be...

Move 10 x 25 ST = 250. Divided by 100 gives us 2.5. This becomes 3d-2 damage, which in turn, modified for lance plus speed bonus, becomes 3d+2.

This means the lance breaks on a roll of a 15+, which occurs at 15-2, or 13+ on 3d6. Lance breaks on a frequence of 25.9% of the time.

Now - I've kept this strictly in the realm of "Rules as written" (or as best as I can). Using options from GURPS MARTIAL ARTS makes sense, but do you really want to use an all out attack to gain a +2 damage bonus? Probably not. Using a strong attack (or what ever that option is called to gain a +1 bonus to hit but at a penalty to defense) only increases the damage by +1. Not a whole heck of a major improvement in how often a lance breaks.

Last but not least? GURPS listed the Light warhorse as being a ST 22, and a Heavy Warhorse as a ST 24. It doesn't mention whether these horses are to be considered Nags or not. If the rules are slightly out of focus, and a viable warhorse SHOULD have a ST of 25 in order to meet the minimum requirements for jousting needs or lancing work in combat, then GURPS should have listed the warhorse strength as being at least 25. Whether 25 ST should be the minimum ST for a Light Warhorse, and 30 should be more appropriate for a Heavy, then that should be the case.

I'm not poo-pooing the observation of "nags" so much as this doesn't seem to be the intention of the authors of GURPS CAMPAIGNS and/or GURPS CHARACTERS. I recall you did some work earlier on horses and horse types. Does this thread revise some of your opinions on the warhorses in general?

[hal]

Originally Posted by whthat

But does that damage amount assume stationary target?

If it does you would have to add the move of the opponent to the speed and get 2.4 dice of damage. Also note that the calculation specifies that you should round down (B397). Given that the general melee weapons paragraph for cavalry weapons states:

(emphasis mine) I would assume that you carry it through to lance damage calculations.

This would give you a total damage of 2d +4 (+3 for the lance, +1 for speed).

But I could be completely off.

To the best of my understanding - and this will require a statement on the part of Kromm himself, the speed of your foe is NOT included in the damage by a charging horse with a lance armed rider atop of it. The +1 bonus MAY be included based upon the wording (and for now, I'm inclined to agree on your position that it does) - but the examples given in GURPS thus far, do NOT include the speed of the target for the basic lance damage.

What I find interesting in all of this is the fact that the Rider's strength is not an issue when the horse charges a foe. Max damage for a lance shouldn't be based solely upon a horse's speed and strength, but also upon how much shock impact the rider can absorb himself before he MUST drop the lance from the impact. The rider is the linkage point between the horse and the lance tip.

In all of this, I'd like to remind people, that when I discuss rules and what I consider is missing from the rules, that I'm not unaware that it is easier to criticize other's work, than it is to create one's own rules. To that end, if it seems that I'm harping against Sean or David's work, it is not my intent. My intent is to make the rules make sense in an overall manner. For me, Lances doing 15+ damage in combat contradict expectations based on HISTORY and based upon the game mechanics created via GURPS (ie Armor damage resistance, armor weights, encumberance rules, etc).

What bothers me a bit here too, is that the ability of a lance to shatter isn't based upon the skill of the rider itself, but upon the damage done by the charging warhorse. One would think that a skillful rider with a lance, should be able to have their lance break more often than a less skillful rider.

Sadly, the rider who is better skilled with the shield, determines how often a lance breaks.

Example:

A shield skill of 16, results in a rider whose defense roll will be 8+3+2 or defend against a lance attack with rolls of 11 or less (no chance of a lance breaking), or with a 12+ denoting a solid hit (assuming the attacker scores a hit to begin with).

A shield skill of 18 on the other hand, will result in a defender whose shield will block the lance to no effect (ie the lance has no solid hit upon the shield or torso) on a roll of 13+

[RobKamm]

Originally Posted by hal

To the best of my understanding - and this will require a statement on the part of Kromm himself, the speed of your foe is NOT included in the damage by a charging horse with a lance armed rider atop of it.

I'm not Kromm, but my brother-in-law looks a lot like him. That said, the rules for slams (which are summarized, but not rewritten, on B397 under Lance combat) say that:

Originally Posted by Campaigns, B371

"Velocity" is usually just the number of yards you moved this turn - but in a head-on collision, add the distance your foe moved toward you on his last turn (that is, use relative velocity).

I would suggest that two horses sprinting at one another should qualify.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by RobKamm

I would suggest that two horses sprinting at one another should qualify.

Indeed.

I took the sentence 'Work out damage for a collision between the mount and the target...' in the lance rules to mean exactly that. Using an official rule from collissions to figure the damage as if for a collision seems RAW enough to me.

The fact that the lance rules only state the basic gist of the collision rules and don't reproduce them in full should probably not be taken as indicative that you should not apply modifiers for special cases, such as the jousting lists. Keep in mind that the lance rules are in the Combat section and formalised jousts are not the focus of GURPS Combat.

[whthat]

To me the velocity must be added to have the situation pass a reality check. This is what made me go look at the rules in the 1st place. A head on collusion with both cars going 30 mph does 60 mph of damage to both cars not the damage of 30 mph.

As for the rounding the only place I'm finding the rule for taking fractional dice to 1d-n is B470 which specifies that it is for damage under 1d only. Thus I'm going to stand by my calculation of 2d+4 until an official ruling otherwise.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by hal

Last but not least? GURPS listed the Light warhorse as being a ST 22, and a Heavy Warhorse as a ST 24. It doesn't mention whether these horses are to be considered Nags or not. If the rules are slightly out of focus, and a viable warhorse SHOULD have a ST of 25 in order to meet the minimum requirements for jousting needs or lancing work in combat, then GURPS should have listed the warhorse strength as being at least 25. Whether 25 ST should be the minimum ST for a Light Warhorse, and 30 should be more appropriate for a Heavy, then that should be the case.

I'm not poo-pooing the observation of "nags" so much as this doesn't seem to be the intention of the authors of GURPS CAMPAIGNS and/or GURPS CHARACTERS. I recall you did some work earlier on horses and horse types. Does this thread revise some of your opinions on the warhorses in general?

The 'Heavy Warhorse' from Campaigns is not a medieval destrier. I don't know what it is intended to represent, but at 1900 lbs. and an effective cost per lbs. about that of traveling rations, it has no relationship with a knight's destrier.

We simply don't have stats for a destrier. It's not in the Basic Set. So you can't do things by RAW in this example.

Just like you couldn't do a thought experiment with a Porsche Boxster using the stats in Campaigns for a Roadster. Despite a superficially similar name, these are not the same thing at all.