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Old 05-09-2008, 07:35 AM   #21
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Good examples of Social Regards?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommi_Kovala
I read the eXile.
What's that?
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Old 05-09-2008, 08:31 AM   #22
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Default Re: Good examples of Social Regards?

Isn't the whole point of Social Advantages (or Disadvantages) that they're entirely situational, that is, it depends on where you are and who you're dealing with? That even if you a Reputation +4 (World 's Best Actor, recognized everywhere, all the time) you'll still run into people who have never heard of you (in Third World countries, for example?) I think that in general, social traits apply to "most of the people in your area, most of the time" at best.

This reminds me of something I've wondered about for a while: How to handle Social Traits in a World-Jumping campaign? Because it can really adjust the character's point value, if only for a while. For example, in a world where I have a counterpart, I would gain Mistaken Identity as soon as I landed there; if my counterpart is a criminal, I would have Evil Twin instead! And even if I have no counterpart, I'm now Zeroed! how to deal with that, point wise?
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Old 05-09-2008, 08:50 AM   #23
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Default Re: Good examples of Social Regards?

Well while Wourld Jumping isn't the exatly my theme or the topics theme. It would depend how often the group moves from reality to reality...If every session is another reality I wouldn't border with point-balancing as its most likely part of the session plot or sub-plot.

If there is a part of champaing there than it is a problem and it should by done normaly, I wouldn't borther with modifiers. Also I think that there are some rules for Temporal Advategas and Disadvatage, that might solve this case.

In generaly Traveling is Bad for social engineers as they never had a chance to adapt. A Cosmic modifier might work...I guess...

Why is Social Regard 5 points

Well because its quite universal. Mostly for some levels of reputation you might need to do yourself indroduction and reputation is the part that is realy ambivalent...both good and bad in many cases.

Social Regartds on the other hand are good only. While some NPC might specificaly dislike you its already a Disadvatage...(mostly on there part). If you have Social regarts your "type" is basicaly "enviroment" favorit.
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Old 05-09-2008, 08:53 AM   #24
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Default Re: Good examples of Social Regards?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sijo
Isn't the whole point of Social Advantages (or Disadvantages) that they're entirely situational, that is, it depends on where you are and who you're dealing with? That even if you a Reputation +4 (World 's Best Actor, recognized everywhere, all the time) you'll still run into people who have never heard of you (in Third World countries, for example?) I think that in general, social traits apply to "most of the people in your area, most of the time" at best.

This reminds me of something I've wondered about for a while: How to handle Social Traits in a World-Jumping campaign? Because it can really adjust the character's point value, if only for a while. For example, in a world where I have a counterpart, I would gain Mistaken Identity as soon as I landed there; if my counterpart is a criminal, I would have Evil Twin instead! And even if I have no counterpart, I'm now Zeroed! how to deal with that, point wise?
You don't. The whole purpose of points is to set a starting level for your character that's roughly equal to the other PCs. Once the game's under way, it really doesn't MATTER how many points you're worth, especially for transient advantages/disadvantages like these.

The points you earn matter, since those can be used to improve abilities. But the rest of it is more fluid ... and should be.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:05 AM   #25
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Default Re: Good examples of Social Regards?

Claiming that Bhuddist monks can't have Social Regard because anyone can shave their head and wear orange robes strikes me as ridiculous. Anyone can dye their hair grey and wear makeup to look old, but you only buy Social Regard: Venerable if you're old (or possibly can get the GM to agree that you have a REALLY good act; then you also get Secret: actually a young fart (Embarassment)).

Arguing that Jedi have "Rank" that starts at 2 is, frankly, nonsensical. Rank is a "sphere of control" advantage. A young trainee 10 years old does not get a force of 16-20 men to control. He gets some respect, but possibly not enough to counteract the Social Stigma: Minor he's also got. Rank starts at 0 - SOMEONE has to be at the bottom of a Rank structure, or it's not a Rank structure. It's innately hierarchical, the same way Status is innately Heirarchical.

Status specifically comes with an improved lifestyle - Jedi don't have high Status - they don't seem to hold any significant amount of property on their own, they bum around in plain clothing, and they don't get fast hover-sports-cars, a house out in the country, or personal assistants/servants/slaves (which DO exist in their setting). They don't have to pay more cost of living every month, and they don't get the benefits.

Darth Vader was a Sith LORD, so got a bunch of Status and Rank from the Emperor. Before that, he was just Anakin Skywalker, Jedi (Social Regard) possibly with the Reputation (Chosen One).

Anyone can dress up as a doctor, or as an emperor given the right budget. That doesn't mean they can talk the talk, walk the walk, know the right people, and are KNOWN by the right people in return.

The real doctor has Social Regard: Physician in most settings, the Emperor has Status 7 or 8, and if someone's caught impersonating an Emperor they're facing anything from getting beat up, to being placed in psychiatric care, to jail time or death for violating sumptuary laws and embarrassing officials.

If a player wants to start the game living a lie, they get a Secret worth at least as much as the Social Regard - if their cover is blown, they loose the Social Regard AND they generally get even MORE trouble heaped on their heads.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:22 AM   #26
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Default Re: Good examples of Social Regards?

Policement generally get Social Regard (plus law enforcement powers, internal rank, etc.).
M.D.s get Social Regard... most people treat them with a certain awe and respect.
Elders, in most cultures, get Social Regard.

When there is no law forcing you to be particularly nice, respectful or even humble in the presence of some social group, but it's excpected that you would... it's probably a case for Social Regard.
Old people are the perfect example, they must be treated well even by high ranking polititians and military leaders, independent of income, social status or position. Put the president next to the old guy (the older the better) and observe the presiden'ts behaviour: corteous, sympathetic, sometimes even over-polite... nothing DEMANDS he does that, but it's expected of him by society at large.

This is also a good example because it's independent of status (social position), reputation (it works even if they don't know your rep or who tha hell you are), appearance (social beauty standards aren't even very forgiving of old people), charisma (some are darned nasty and you have to treat them politely all the same), wealth (doesn't matter how much money he has), etc...
It's just "Social Tabu" not to behave in a respectfull manner towards an elder, hence Social Regard. You wouldn't go to jail for saying "I like old people." but it might draw a few objections and possibly cause a few sermons.

If you want to get a list of social regard possibilities think of the values of society and wich citizens it would regard with respect, respectful fear, awe or admiration of some sort.

A lot of confusion stems from 3e status that sometimes filled the shoes of social regard in it's absence, wich was confusing.

Does a person have an actual position in society (Status)? If not, it's probably Social Regard.
Reputation works the other way around: it stems FROM the individual TOWARDS society. It has to do with something you did or are known as/by that qualifies you to special admiration.

Things get tricky because many of these traits are present in the same people. The Policeman has social regard, rank inside the police, status as a public server, law enforcement powers and possibly a personal reputation.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:27 AM   #27
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Good examples of Social Regards?

My problem is rather when to use Social Regard instead of everything else. A generally practicing physician has a ph.d, so should he have high Status or Social Regard?

Should some kind of clergy, perhaps in societies with informal or nonexistent religious hierarchies, have Social Regard instead of Religous Rank?

What about the old Keltic society, where you have the Learned Class, including not just Bards and Druids and Christian priests, but also smiths? Is that Status or Religous Rank or is it Social Regard (Tonsured member of the Learned Classed)?

Often, taken Social Regard in addition to something else is expensive and results in a higher Reaction Roll bonus than what is really warranted.

edit: Reputation is also a possibility, as something that one might take instead of Social Regard. I really think some Krommly guidance would be useful here.

Last edited by Peter Knutsen; 05-09-2008 at 09:29 AM. Reason: adding material
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:33 AM   #28
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Good examples of Social Regards?

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Originally Posted by Tommi_Kovala
Surely being a gopnik calls for a meta-trait, not just Social Regard?
The advantage, IME, is great for fleshing out a campaign world where you have groups like holy men, witches, Party members, etc... They may have internal hierarchies, but to society at large, they're just separate and respected (and instantly recognisable). Even if you buy Rank in the Most Sacred Order of the Mummified Toad, you'll still have to pay for Social Regard if you want the public to show deference to it.
That makes sense. That's also how I handle the druids in the Keltic lands of Ärth. They've got an internal hiearchy with rank structures and advancement and time-in-grade (even if the most brilliant ones make it to full Druid in rather less than the normal 20 years), but to outsiders, there's really only four classes:

one of the druids (non-capital "d"), which can mean anybody who is tonsured or ever was.
a Druid (the equivalent of a Bishop, more or less, in terms of rarity and social powers and influence)
Archdruid (the equivalent of an Archbishop)
Wizard (a special variant of Archdruid)

Assuming Druid is Religious Rank 5 in GURPS, people would now if you were Rank 5+ (i.e. a Druid), but if you were't, they usually couldn't care less whether you were Rank or Rank 4. In their eyes, you'd just be "one of the druids".

In that light, if one were to try to use GURPS to simulate the Ärth setting, Keltic Pagan Religous Rank would cost less than 5 CPs per level (2 or 3 CPs), and anyone with Religous Rank, even Rank 0 (if they still maintain the tonsure or at least "druidic mannerisms") buys Social Regard and one level of Status. Once you make Rank 5, you have to buy more Status since you're now something official (a Druid).
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:33 AM   #29
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Default Re: Good examples of Social Regards?

Japan offers two examples of Social Regard.

When the first Jesuits arrived in Japan, they were mistaken for Buddhist priests (due to their black robes), and were treated as such. Until, of course, the differences became obvious.

Jewish people were for many years treated as monks in Japan due to the practice of kashrut (eating kosher). The only other peoples in Japanese culture who have dietary restrictions like that are monks who have taken special vows. Even today many Japanese people have a fascination with their Jewish minority (yes, there is a Jewish minority in Japan who were smuggled out of occupied countries and hidden from their Nazi then-allies. It's a fascinating tale, worth study).
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:46 AM   #30
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Default Re: Good examples of Social Regards?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen
My problem is rather when to use Social Regard instead of everything else. A generally practicing physician has a ph.d, so should he have high Status or Social Regard?

.
Status, in our culture. Being a GP is lucrative but requires a certain amount of overhead to maintain. You can distinguish between Social Regard and Social Status by determining whether a person needs to spend to retain their position. Social Regard is Status you don't have to pay for. Thus holy hermits in a culture that respects them, even when they have no official religious standing and are basically just skinny smelly recluses have Social Regard. In modern day North America, not a lot of people have Social Regard (respected).
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