What GURPS needs... now

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The drawback is that you can wind up leaving a skill off of your character sheet because you had no idea it existed, and deciding what skill is appropriate can be a hassle for the GM (in game systems that work like this, I usually ask the players to propose a skill they think will work, rather than telling them what skill to use).

Yeah, I found this to be the primary reason I couldn't make HERO characters. There isn't any clear reason, at least in the edition I was trying to play, why you would take a narrow knowledge skill over a general one and the GM was no help.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Yeah, I found this to be the primary reason I couldn't make HERO characters. There isn't any clear reason, at least in the edition I was trying to play, why you would take a narrow knowledge skill over a general one and the GM was no help.

In principle, using different skills might have different difficulties, and we always assumed that using a tightly focused appropriate skill was easier than a general skill, but that can be problematic too (character A made physics by 10, character B made quantum mechanics by 3. Which is better?).

[sir_pudding]

I really wish that character sheets and templates used the same format. That seems to be a continuing source of confusion for players, IME, and I don't really understand why they are different. Hopefully DFRPG addresses this!

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I really wish that character sheets and templates used the same format.

The problem with templates in character sheet format is that they'd be really big with all the optional stuff. You could do a hybrid sheet that includes only the mandatory traits and notes for optional stuff, but it would still add at least half a page to the length of templates.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

GURPS is tougher on first-time GMs, IME.

I found remarkably straight forward and easier to GM in GURPS than D&D.

GURPS wasn't my first time in the GM seat, but it was my first campaign.

Originally Posted by whswhs

I have to think that templates would daunt many people other than me.

They don't 'daunt' me, but I have a love/hate relationship with them.

I love the narrowing of focus, but hate the regulating of my focus. If that makes any sense at all.


On second thought, I rewrite every template into a slightly different format when I go use them. No info changes, just a different presentation. So yeah, the massive block of impenetrably dense words and numbers is daunting. I guess? It's not like it takes more than a few minutes though... so it's not difficult or insurmountable.

[Tyneras]

I think a lot of separate GURPS skills could be condensed into broader skills with techniques. Quantum Physics being a technique of General Physics at -5, for example. Though a lot of specialties should require a single point in the technique to attempt at all.

Other examples include Alternate Guns Specialities and Techniques (Pyramid 3/65 p16) and I personally would condense all the hand to hand skills into 2 skills of Striking (Brawling, Karate, etc.) and Grappling (Wrestling, Sumo Wrestling, etc.) with the various special bonuses and moves being techniques.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by whswhs

That addresses my first point, but not my second that templates are just difficult to read. I have players who need to be reminded that the number after the dash is what they roll under and the number in the brackets is the point cost! I have to think that templates would daunt many people other than me.

I certainly can use templates, but I do find the format unpleasant and difficult to work through. The thing is, really, that it's scarcely a format at all - just all the items that need to go on a character sheet listed as densely as possible. And 'as densely as possible' is never reader-friendly.


...You know, for PDF products the cost of burning some extra page space on a more readable layout seems low. But I imagine they're never going to switch out of formats designed to minimize printing costs so long as print is at all relevant.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem with templates in character sheet format is that they'd be really big with all the optional stuff. You could do a hybrid sheet that includes only the mandatory traits and notes for optional stuff, but it would still add at least half a page to the length of templates.

I'm just talking about the character sheet listing skills as "Name Level Relative Level [Cost]" and templates listing them as "Name (Difficulty) Relative Level [Cost]-Level". When players copy templates they almost always start copying them in the same order and therefore writing them in the wrong order on the character sheet, IME. I really don't get why a different order was used at all.

[JMason]

I like templates, but I would change a few things about them:

- They are super dense and this makes it very hard to see what is "mandatory" what is "pick x points from", etc. I think I recall that DFRPG is going to address this?

- I HATE that they include Disadvantages. I wouldn't mind a "suggested" disadvantage list after the template... but the idea that a character has to take X points in disadvantages to afford all the good stuff bothers me. And I don't like that players often think that the they have to pick from that list... often then picking disads they don't want to roleplay.

- I'd like to see more uses of "lenses" INSIDE of templates, like the "motivational" lenses from Monster Hunters.

[Apollonian]

Originally Posted by JMason

I like templates, but I would change a few things about them:

- They are super dense and this makes it very hard to see what is "mandatory" what is "pick x points from", etc. I think I recall that DFRPG is going to address this?

- I HATE that they include Disadvantages. I wouldn't mind a "suggested" disadvantage list after the template... but the idea that a character has to take X points in disadvantages to afford all the good stuff bothers me. And I don't like that players often think that the they have to pick from that list... often then picking disads they don't want to roleplay.

- I'd like to see more uses of "lenses" INSIDE of templates, like the "motivational" lenses from Monster Hunters.

I agree with you on the first and third points, but some templates - especially dramatic ones instead of professional ones - require disadvantages to fulfill their concept. (Duty for police or soldiers, Secret or Social Stigma for criminals, etc.) In my experience, some players like a bit of guidance on picking disadvantages, especially if they don't have a strong character-concept-including-disadvantages to start with. (At least one of my players is very much a "pick from a menu/catalog" character creation sort.)

I do agree, though, that a template shouldn't include disadvantages just to make points. If it needs the points, it should cost more, and players can take the disadvantages they want to afford it.

----

I am pondering a priority approach to character creation or templates for the next time I start up a campaign (well, next after Dungeon Fantasy, anyway - once that box shows up, my group is doing Temple of Elemental Evil, by golly). It'd involve a fair bit of tinkering to build a front end that works with the standard GURPS mechanics, which I don't want to abandon. I'd like something that strongly foregrounded the amateur/professional/expert skill ratings and average/above-average/etc. attribute ratings - in my campaigns the skill list is the densest and least-readable portion of the character sheet, and I think if the player could look at it and see that their PC is a Professional-level doctor instead of working out what Physician-14, Diagnosis-12, and Pharmacy-13 mean.

It's not even a work in progress yet, though...