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Old 11-29-2020, 08:34 AM   #11
Gnome
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Default Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
ATR makes it impossible to socially interact with people, or use Feint against people, who do not possess an equivalent ATR, meaning that you have to switch it off (beneficial and switchable, but problematic if always left on). Conversely, there are not associated problems with using Compartmentalized Mind or Extra Attack, so they are always on.

There is also that matter of game balance. There is no reason at all why people would not take Maximum Duration with Compartmentalized Mind or Extra Attack if it was an option. For example, imagine a superhero with Extra Attack 4 (Maximum Duration, 20 seconds, -75%; Multiattack, +20%; Single Skill, Karate, -20%) [25]. For 25 CP, they could make 100 attacks in 20 seconds, and parry 120 times, easily allowing them to take out an infantry company and defend against all their attacks.
If the infantry company can stall a bit, perhaps by fleeing for 20s, the ability shuts off for 5 minutes. That seems significant. Also, doesnít similar logic apply to ATR? CM and EA just seem like limited forms of ATR.
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Old 11-29-2020, 10:46 AM   #12
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge

No, CM and EA are not limited forms of ATR, because they do not cause difficulties with interactions. CM and EA can also represent being controlled by another party. In additiom, CM grants effective partial immunity to mental effects, as mental effects normally only target one mind at a time.
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Old 11-29-2020, 11:39 AM   #13
Plane
 
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Default Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
I canít say I understand the Extended Duration idea, since by default EA lasts forever.
I'm approaching it like it's an ability which can be activated as a free action at the start of your turn and lasts one second.

Can anyone see any drawbacks in doing that?

We have to move away from assuming "always on" to allow things like Nuisance Effects, like how Bio-Tech essentially incorporates Odious Personal Habits (sweating, -1 reaction) as a Temporary Disadvantage but calls it a Nuisance.

In the case of regeneration there is at least a 1-second delay before you do any Healing so even though it doesn't cost a maneuver to switch on (essentially is Reflexive: turns on when you need it) that delay fits in the spirit of TD, just like the 1-second delay of Leech's healing allows you to take Temporary Disadvantages on that (as in Powers)

Of course regeneration will also start up when you might not want it to (eg: you'd rather be down 1 HP for the next three hours instead of being sweat/smelly for your fancy dress dinner) and it's not possible to shut it off w/ a Will Roll like w/ an Uncontrollable ability, so it's definitely pretty close to the inflexibility of an Always On one... sort of like "Minimum Duration: Variable" (however long it takes to heal all wounds, you can't stop sweating)

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
No, CM and EA are not limited forms of ATR, because they do not cause difficulties with interactions.
With ATR1 it feels like maybe even if they couldn't switch it off perhaps they could do some kind of IQ check to try and talk at half-speed to be understood?

Or if evaluate or feint were super-important, to sacrifice 2 maneuvers to accomplish it?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
CM and EA can also represent being controlled by another party.
I get the idea with CM but do you know an example of EA being used this way?

This does cause me to dwell on how EA is physical (can't take it with you when possessing someone else's body, someone possessing your body gets to use it) while CM is mental. I guess you could convert EA to mental by adding "requires will roll" or similar to it though.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
In additiom, CM grants effective partial immunity to mental effects, as mental effects normally only target one mind at a time.
Yeah I think when we compare the two we usually tack on "No Mental Separation" limitation, at which point it's not really a "compartmentalized" mind in the sense of consciousness, only tasks?

The way both halves travel when you possess a body (doesn't seem a way around it) makes it hard to think of it as control by another party though...

Uncontrollable comes to mind to represent that, but I'm not sure what an Uncontrollable Compartmentalized Mind could do... could it start casting spells you know?

Were you thinking Uncontrollable + Extra Attack in the above?
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Old 11-29-2020, 12:39 PM   #14
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge

No, the EA was just accidentally extending the idea of controls for CM to EA.
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Old 11-29-2020, 01:58 PM   #15
transmetahuman
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Default Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
ATR makes it impossible to socially interact with people, or use Feint against people, who do not possess an equivalent ATR, meaning that you have to switch it off (beneficial and switchable, but problematic if always left on). Conversely, there are not associated problems with using Compartmentalized Mind or Extra Attack, so they are always on.
I don't believe you need to actually switch off ATR, in the Switchable sense, in order to interact with normal speed characters. "In order to do anything that depends on someone else’s reactions, you must deliberately 'slow down' and function at his speed. This applies both when making a Feint in combat and when making an Influence roll (see p. 359) out of combat. For instance, if you choose to Feint, that is all you can do on your turn – you can not take extra actions".

The wording seems, to me, to imply that ATR is a passive, permanent ability that gives you a "maximum speed" higher than others - but like a Move score, you don't need to switch it off or take a Variable enhancement - in fact, Powers p.107 says "Variable is strictly for attacks, which otherwise work at full power at all times. Non-attack abilities don’t need it - their range, area, level of effect, and so on are variable automatically". Of course it still becomes Switchable if your ATR has, e.g., the Temp Disad: Hemophilia example in Basic.

Speedsters in the comics never have trouble understanding the speech of others while they're zipping around, despite the frequency shift logic would dictate for someone living in a slow-mo world. It's RAW that you can't use Influence skills on people unless you use your full turn (or set of turns, if you look at it that way), but I would argue that you can still say things during your ATR (intelligibly), as the comics speedsters can - you just need to be able to incorporate a subject's reactions, and thus slow down, in order to actually use an Influence skill.

Edit: ... In an appropriate supers setting, anyway, or with ATR digital minds that have the trivial capability to buffer people's speech or otherwise process the slow-mo version. I can easily imagine some versions of ATR with other rationales being unable to understand or speak intelligibly.

Last edited by transmetahuman; 11-29-2020 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 11-29-2020, 04:54 PM   #16
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge

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Originally Posted by transmetahuman View Post
I don't believe you need to actually switch off ATR, in the Switchable sense, in order to interact with normal speed characters. "In order to do anything that depends on someone elseís reactions, you must deliberately 'slow down' and function at his speed. This applies both when making a Feint in combat and when making an Influence roll (see p. 359) out of combat. For instance, if you choose to Feint, that is all you can do on your turn Ė you can not take extra actions".

The wording seems, to me, to imply that ATR is a passive, permanent ability that gives you a "maximum speed" higher than others
Alternatively: what if we just perceive it being inherently switchable as a free action?

That would explain how you could "slow down", but would allow someone to take an "Always On" limitation (like -10%) if they're unable to slow down to do things like Feint / Influence / Evaluate.

Kind of like built-in temporary disadvantages, but to take any other kind you'd probably need to buy "Takes Extra Time" to stop it being a free action to switch (need a free ready to switch) it on and off.

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Originally Posted by transmetahuman View Post
Powers p.107 says "Variable is strictly for attacks, which otherwise work at full power at all times.
Non-attack abilities donít need it - their range, area, level of effect, and so on are variable automatically"
and yet same book also suggests taking Variable for Mana Enhancer / Mana Damper... are those attacks?

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Originally Posted by transmetahuman View Post
Of course it still becomes Switchable if your ATR has, e.g., the Temp Disad: Hemophilia example in Basic.
Temp Did doesn't make stuff switchable, either it's already switchable or you need to alter it to be.

Transient stuff kinda hinges on switchability just without being able to control duration.
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Old 11-29-2020, 06:52 PM   #17
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
ATR makes it impossible to socially interact with people, or use Feint against people, who do not possess an equivalent ATR, meaning that you have to switch it off (beneficial and switchable, but problematic if always left on).
That's not quite correct. The RAW says you can interact with people but you must "deliberately "slow down" and function at his speed". That's not the same as switching the power off.


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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I'm approaching it like it's an ability which can be activated as a free action at the start of your turn and lasts one second.
That's not a correct approach. EA is always on even when you are choosing not to use it. If you have Acute Vision, it's not switched off just because you've closed your eyes. Likewise if you have Extra Attack, you still have it even if you're not attacking.

Quote:
With ATR1 it feels like maybe even if they couldn't switch it off perhaps they could do some kind of IQ check to try and talk at half-speed to be understood?
The text specifically contemplates that the character can opt to go slower and it doesn't mention a need for a roll.


Quote:
Alternatively: what if we just perceive it being inherently switchable as a free action?
That would be importing an interpretation that is neither correct nor necessary.

Last edited by Donny Brook; 11-29-2020 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 11-30-2020, 06:22 PM   #18
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
EA is always on even when you are choosing not to use it.
I used to think the same of regeneration, but that only seems to invoke it's nuisance effect (temp disad: odious) when actually recovering HP in Bio-Tech.

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
If you have Acute Vision, it's not switched off just because you've closed your eyes.
B118 interestingly approaches Night Vision as if it were inherently switchable since you can take Temporary Disadvantage: Unnatural Feature on it.

The ability to close one's eyes seems like it would make vision effectively a switchable sense.

Hearing is nearly there but the ears can't close themselves (you use hands to cover, like you might use to cover eyes if you lacked eyelids) so maybe there's some kind of built-in limitation to switchability like "requires eyelids" ?

Being able to switch off your vision without actually closing your eyelids would be pretty cool since then you could relax and avoid distractions while seeming like you were paying attention.

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
if you have Extra Attack, you still have it even if you're not attacking.
Having an advantage and having it on are two different things. Does

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
The text specifically contemplates that the character can opt to go slower and it doesn't mention a need for a roll.
Which could be evidence that it's switchable by default since that seems like something you'd have trouble with (Ballad of Barry Allen)

If time is literally going fast then imagine trying to follow a conversation being played to you at 1/100 speed. It would be hard to pay attention to.

If that's not built into having ATR on then we definitely need to figure out how to build that in as some kind of drawback to having this as an always-on trait, or a temporary disadvantage if you make it switchable.
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