Polearm vs. Axe/Mace AND Spear?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

No one in history ever put a stabbing point on an axe? I find that hard to believe.

People have probably tried it plenty of times. The fact that it wasn't established in regular use anywhere strongly suggests that it isn't very useful.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Symmetry would be reducing the number of skills as well as increasing them.

He wasn't arguing for or against symmetry, his interests lie orthogonal to symmetry.

And, no, I'm not particularly bothered by it being "asymmetrical". My obsessive compulsive tendencies are pretty tightly restricted to sorting candy by colour and then carefully eating them so each batch of colours stays balanced. And trying to figure out the volume and mass of random crap.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by johndallman

People have probably tried it plenty of times. The fact that it wasn't established in regular use anywhere strongly suggests that it isn't very useful.

I don't see how having another option is so not useful as to make its skill non-existent but only when wielding it one handed.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I don't see how having another option is so not useful as to make its skill non-existent but only when wielding it one handed.

... because the biomechanics of holding a heavy ended thing in one hand from the distant point from the weight is very difficult to stab with, compared to having that second hand on the shaft for bracing and another four feet or so behind you to help counterweight the head.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

I guess, when it comes to it, using a weapon in that manner might normally require two skills (stabbing & hacking)

Sword skills allow you to stab and hack. Staff allows you to swing or thrust. Spear allows you to use one-handed or two-handed. So theoretically, it seems fair that a single weapon skill could cover swing, thrust, 1-hand, or 2 simply by increasing the difficulty from Average to Hard.


I trained with the Spear in my Xingyi class, swings were quite common (although we never used it with 1 hand, so maybe I was learning Staff for the Spear). Similarly, I've seen reenactors thrust with axes many times (usually after hooking a weapon or shield and pulling it out of line.) I don't think it breaks anything to give Spears a swing crushing attack (unready if swung one-handed) and axes a thrust crushing attack. They're still subobtimal uses of the weapon.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by aesir23

I don't think it breaks anything to give Spears a swing crushing attack

Spears have a swing crushing attack. It uses the Staff skill, or if you prefer, it's a special attack mode for the Spear that's executed at -2 to effective skill (the default penalty to Staff).

(And yes, many spear-oriented martial arts share a lot of the same body of technique as with a similar sized staff - so either there's a Spear/Staff skill which also covers one handed "staffs" aka batons, which work a heck of a lot like swords, so perhaps there's no sword skill either, just Spear/Staff/Sword - or you're using the cross-skill default, or you're putting some points to buy up Staff from that default)

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Spears have a swing crushing attack. It uses the Staff skill, or if you prefer, it's a special attack mode for the Spear that's executed at -2 to effective skill (the default penalty to Staff).

Fair enough, but there's no corallary for thrusting with an Axe. There is no default between spear and axe.

My point is that there are no balance or realism issues preventing a spear to be swung at full Spear skill and an Axe to be thrust at full Axe skill.

Originally Posted by Bruno

(And yes, many spear-oriented martial arts share a lot of the same body of technique as with a similar sized staff - so either there's a Spear/Staff skill which also covers one handed "staffs" aka batons, which work a heck of a lot like swords, so perhaps there's no sword skill either, just Spear/Staff/Sword - or you're using the cross-skill default, or you're putting some points to buy up Staff from that default)

In my as yet untested house rules on the subject, there is no Staff skill at all. A staff can be used with either Spear or Two-Handed Sword at no penalty--if you want to take a wide grip on it to improve your defenses, well that's what Defensive Grip is for.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

When you're strong enough to wield a two handed polearm with multiple types of damage one handed you suddenly need two skills when one sufficed before.
Any ideas on why that is?

Consider balanced/unbalanced, one handed/two handed, and swung/thrust as variables. That gives eight possibilities.

Spear covers balanced thrusting weapons (2 categories). Polearm covers two-handed, unbalanced, swung or thrust weapons (2 categories). Axe/Mace covers a really big variety of one-handed, unbalanced, swung weapons (1 category). Hatchet or mace play doesn't involve much thrusting, so practicing with a hatchet won't make you very good at thrusting.

Ideally weapon skills would be per weapon with a default to every other weapon, but generalizing that spear fighters train one and two handed, axemen practice with clubs, etc. is much simpler. If it really annoys you, see TBone's system for building your own weapon skill.

[Flyndaran]

Ok, everyone. I think I understand why it is the way it is now.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Consider balanced/unbalanced, one handed/two handed, and swung/thrust as variables. That gives eight possibilities.

Technically there's a third variable - "Flexible or rigid" for whips, flails, and such.

Where I to rejigger the combat skills, I'd drop the one/twohanded variable, and look seriously at the cluster of pick/axe/mace/spear/polearm/staff skills. This is a big muddle of hafted weapons.

I'd be inclined to put picks, axes and hammers into one category (all three require the head to be oriented correctly when striking) and maces, knobbly clubs, and the like into another, easier category with a friendly inter-default (no concern about rotation of the haft).

Spear and staff can be smashed together. (squish)

I would leave polearms separate from axes/maces, but the skill wouldn't cover thrusting. Thrusting would be covered by spear/staff (As would butt strikes), but polearm and spear/staff would have a very friendly inter-default.

Polearms are distinct from the axe/mace/pick group in that they have the long counterweight of the haft behind the wielders grip, and the working edges of the heads hug close to the shaft, to try and minimize how "unbalanced" they are (not the gurps term). A one-handed "Polearm" would need the same design - counterweight haft and close-hugging striking surface.

Polearm is basically a transitional form between pick/axe/mace and sword - it's "More better balanced" than an axe and so can have a thrusting component in the skill (at the small default penalty to staff/spear", but isn't as well balanced as a sword.

Someone who takes a regular war axe or hatchet and sticks a spike on the end could use it with the polearm skill, but they'd be at a penalty all the time for both thrusting and swinging, as it's a terrible polearm.