Skill Question: Parry Missile Weapons

[JMD]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Parry Missile Weapons is by definition the skill of deflecting missiles with anything that comes to hand. It's a skill-based alternative to something like Enhanced Dodge, and has nothing to do with being good with weapons. I'd be fine with a technique-based approach to it on a weapon-by-weapon basis, for masters of specific weapons. As for prerequisites, I think that the best choices here would be "Combat Reflexes or Danger Sense."

Agreed, a technique for use on a weapon to weapon basis would be good only in addition to the original PMW rules. That way people can pay points for an entirely separate skill and parry with any weapon or, if they prefer, pay less points for the technique but only be able to parry with that one weapon.

[malloyd]

You already get to use your weapon skill to parry thrown weapons (p.B376). The modifiers don't match up with the ones under the Parry Missile Weapons skill, but I don't see why you couldn't use the PMW ones -4 or -5, depending on which of the two overlaps you wanted to keep the same, as the default, and allow buying up a Parry Missiles technique only to counter those penalties. [Edit: you probably should double them and apply them to skill, or require two levels of the technique to cancel one point of the penalties, to account for the halving skill effect for determining parry, but that's just a minor detail]

If you want, you could improve the symmetry by adding a Parry Melee Weapons* skill too. Another "weapon" skill, usuable with anything solid but only to parry, isn't going to unbalance anything.

[nerdvana]

So, after a distraction and rebuild of my files (thank god for backups, now I am doing them more frequently...), I have finally gotten around to working up my house rules on this skill.

1. Dropped the Parry Missile Weapons Skills
2. Added three new techniques: Parry Thrown Weapons, Parry Projectiles and Parry Bullets (see below for details)

Originally Posted by nerdvana's house rules

Parry Thrown Weapons (Hard technique)
Defaults: prerequisite skill Parry-1 or -2.
Prerequisites: Any Combat Skill with a Parry value; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.

Anyone can parry a thrown weapon (see p B376), but at -1 to parry for most thrown weapons or -2 for small weapons like knives, shuriken and other weapons that weigh one pound or less. By training this technique a warrior can negate these penalties; even if this is trained to two levels it never improves the parry above its normal level.

Originally Posted by nerdvana's house rules

Parry Projectiles (Hard Technique)
Defaults: None; bought up from prerequisite skill Parry-2 or -3.
Prerequisites: Altered Time Rate, Combat Reflexes, Danger Sense, Trained By A Master, or Weapon Master and any Combat Skill with a Parry value; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.

Through training you have learned to parry arrows and other projectiles (excluding bullets and similar high-tech projectiles. Arrows default to -2, while other projectiles (crossbow bolts, blowpipe darts and sling bullets) default to -3 due to size and/or speed.

Originally Posted by nerdvana's house rules

Parry Bullets (Hard Technique)
Defaults: prerequisite skill Parry-5.
Prerequisites: Altered Time Rate and either Danger Sense or Combat Reflexes, and any Combat Skill with a Parry value; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.

Because of your Enhanced Time Sense, you are capable of parrying bullets (and other, similar, high tech projectiles). In order to do so with your hands you must be wearing either wristbands or gloves with DR 2+ or have at least that much natural DR.

Naturally, any limitations on the prerequisite advantages limit the use of this technique.

(NOTE: The bolding would just be itallics but for how the quoting works)

I know some people will have problems with this... I also welcome constructive criticism. :)

[Bruno]

These are solid. Good call on basing this on the Parry rating explicitly, upthread it seemed to be getting a bit vague as to whether people were thinking of basing it on total skill or on the Parry rating itself (As PMW is a separate skill, this can get confusing).

ATR doesn't actually give you any reaction time benefits, technically. I'd be concerned about keeping that as an option for Parry Bullets, as a lot of people seem to be a bit fuzzy on that point.

Enough so that I think GURPS 5e should perhaps make ETS part of or the entirety of the "First level" of ATR. That would also help sort out the confusion between the two names, which suggest similar ideas.

[nerdvana]

Originally Posted by Bruno

These are solid. Good call on basing this on the Parry rating explicitly, upthread it seemed to be getting a bit vague as to whether people were thinking of basing it on total skill or on the Parry rating itself (As PMW is a separate skill, this can get confusing).

ATR doesn't actually give you any reaction time benefits, technically. I'd be concerned about keeping that as an option for Parry Bullets, as a lot of people seem to be a bit fuzzy on that point.

Enough so that I think GURPS 5e should perhaps make ETS part of or the entirety of the "First level" of ATR. That would also help sort out the confusion between the two names, which suggest similar ideas.

Thanks for the critique. I thought long and hard on them. I'm seeing a slight difference though... if you can act more often isn't that innately reacting faster also? I thought GURPS turns were concurrent so that if Goon A shoots at Goon B and Goon B has ATR he gets to react to the shot (perhaps parrying the bullet if he has my technique) and then shooting Goon A himself because ATR lets him take a full action in reaction as well as a second of his choice.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by nerdvana

I thought GURPS turns were concurrent so that if Goon A shoots at Goon B and Goon B has ATR he gets to react to the shot (perhaps parrying the bullet if he has my technique) and then shooting Goon A himself because ATR lets him take a full action in reaction as well as a second of his choice.

That's not ATR letting him react faster. If Goon B didn't have ATR, he could still react to the shot. Anyone can react to a shot, usually by Dodging since most people can't parry bullets. ATR does nothing to help Goon B dodge bullets, block bullets, or parry bullets - it gives no bonuses to dodge block or parry.

It gives no bonuses to Fast Draw.

It does nothing that is actually related to reaction time. It's just moreaction time.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Bruno

That's not ATR letting him react faster. If Goon B didn't have ATR, he could still react to the shot. Anyone can react to a shot, usually by Dodging since most people can't parry bullets. ATR does nothing to help Goon B dodge bullets, block bullets, or parry bullets - it gives no bonuses to dodge block or parry.

It gives no bonuses to Fast Draw.

It does nothing that is actually related to reaction time. It's just moreaction time.

Yep it is Enhanced Time Sense (ETS) that does all that, and a lost of it becuse it includes combat reflexes.

Note B.212 Parry Missile Weapons says you need ETS to use it to parry bullets. but as Bruno say anyone can Dodge.

ETS puts you first in the Basic speed initiative order before anyone without ETS (ETS people are sorted basic their relative Basic speeds)

[nerdvana]

Originally Posted by Bruno

That's not ATR letting him react faster. If Goon B didn't have ATR, he could still react to the shot. Anyone can react to a shot, usually by Dodging since most people can't parry bullets. ATR does nothing to help Goon B dodge bullets, block bullets, or parry bullets - it gives no bonuses to dodge block or parry.

It gives no bonuses to Fast Draw.

It does nothing that is actually related to reaction time. It's just moreaction time.

Rev. Pee Kitty's response in the ATR/ETS thread states that ATR lets you act faster which means (as I read it), potentially, the ability to act faster than the bullet can fly....

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

ATR represents the ability to physically act faster (or warp time so it appears that you can). ETS represents the ability to think and perceive faster. They're two related, but different things.

YMMV naturally

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by nerdvana

Rev. Pee Kitty's response in the ATR/ETS thread states that ATR lets you act faster which means (as I read it), potentially, the ability to act faster than the bullet can fly....

Kromm has said multiple times in such thread the ATR does one thing and one thing only, give more more than 1 maneuver to use you turn, reactions speed is the Realm of Basic Speed and ETS

Superspeeds need a mixture of all 3 there is no one ability the says you are just faster. you want improved defenses beyond Combat Reflexes for being fast, you buy Enhanced Defenses, of you want move faster in one maneuver you you by Basic Move or Enhanced Move.

Originally Posted by Kromm

My advice here is to ignore the advantage's name . . . it's deceiving. It has long been established that GURPS (like many RPGs) has a whole lot of unintuitively named traits (Honesty disadvantage, Karate skill, etc.). Altered Time Rate is one of these. All ATR does or is supposed to do is give you one extra maneuver per level on your turn; a more accurate name would be Extra Maneuver, but that doesn't sound as cool. At any rate, "one extra maneuver per turn" is what's worth 100 points, not all the other things that might go along with it. To round it out, buy the game-mechanical benefits you want: Basic Move, Basic Speed, Enhanced Defenses, Enhanced Time Sense, etc. Those things are also priced for their effects.

The chief benefit of this "effects-oriented" approach is that you can mix and match just those effects that suit your character. The full package for someone who has a different perception of time is more of a template or a meta-trait built from a bunch of the above traits. I suppose I should apologize for ATR's name – although I didn't come up with it – but let's not dwell on the name when all that matters is the effect. And to get the effect of "I defend really well because I'm N times as fast," buy some combination of Combat Reflexes/Enhanced Time Sense, Enhanced Defenses, etc. For instance, Enhanced Parry 4 will give you a first parry at +4, offsetting up to -8 your rival took to skill in a Deceptive Attack justified by sheer speed (Martial Arts, p. 111), and give you a second parry at no penalty.

Originally Posted by Kromm

A character with ATR 1 gets two back-to-back turns whenever his number comes up in the combat sequence. He can therefore run half his Move while attacking twice with All-Out Attack (Double) -- the attacks coming anywhere along his path -- on his first turn, and then run half his Move again while getting all his normal defenses and +2 to Dodge by taking All-Out Defense (Increased Dodge) on his second turn. To external observers, this guy runs his full Move, attacks twice without sacrificing skill or defenses, and dodges at +2 when everybody else can only take a step, attack once, and dodge normally. That's how to game out the defensive effects of ATR.

[nerdvana]

So this further discussion did make me change the Parry Bullets ability... now it requires Altered Time Rate and either Danger Sense or Combat Reflexes as prerequisite advantages. (I edited it up thread)

(EDIT) I also updated Parry Projectiles, replacing ETS with Combat Reflexes there also.