Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-14-2019, 08:37 AM   #31
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Modern Body Armor

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
I also see that people have started talking about foam armour again - I recall a lot of fuss about shear-thickening foam around the millennium and then it all went quiet again. Now metal foam seems to be the new great hope Ö but that may be something else. Anyone out there well informed?
From what I can find, there arenít any body armors that are made of composite metal foam (CMF) on the market, so itís not going to be available in Icelanderís campaign. A brief bit of research indicates roughly DR 36/in (a one-inch section passed NIJ IV testing), which isnít that great. The weight is apparently 1/3rd that of RHA, and itís stainless steel (which isnít known for its protective value), so thereís that. It seems a better fit for vehicle (or building) armor than personal armor, and I suspect it may not do as well against impaling and cutting as it does against piercing, crushing, and burning.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2019, 10:27 AM   #32
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Modern Body Armor

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
I also see that people have started talking about foam armour again - I recall a lot of fuss about shear-thickening foam around the millennium and then it all went quiet again. Now metal foam seems to be the new great hope Ö but that may be something else. Anyone out there well informed?
Shear thickening fluid is used today in protective gear, but it's not terribly relevant to ballistic protection, it's mostly about making a flexible armor that still resists crushing (in GURPS terms, it probably eliminates non-penetrating damage).
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2019, 11:58 AM   #33
Rupert
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: Modern Body Armor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
From what I can find, there arenít any body armors that are made of composite metal foam (CMF) on the market, so itís not going to be available in Icelanderís campaign. A brief bit of research indicates roughly DR 36/in (a one-inch section passed NIJ IV testing), which isnít that great. The weight is apparently 1/3rd that of RHA, and itís stainless steel (which isnít known for its protective value), so thereís that. It seems a better fit for vehicle (or building) armor than personal armor, and I suspect it may not do as well against impaling and cutting as it does against piercing, crushing, and burning.
The fact it's rather bulky is a problem for personal armour. It's also very new, so how good it will end up after some proper optimisation isn't clear.
__________________
Rupert Boleyn

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
Rupert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2019, 01:28 PM   #34
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Modern Body Armor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
The fact it's rather bulky is a problem for personal armour. It's also very new, so how good it will end up after some proper optimisation isn't clear.
Well, if an inch of it passes NIJ Level IV testing, it's significantly less bulky than polyethylene plates, as those are about 30% thicker and only pass Level III. Ceramic composites which pass the newest NIJ Level IV as stand-alone plates tend to be over an inch thick, as well, though there are some expensive plates that are 0.9" or so.

There may be 0.70-0.75" plate that passes NIJ Level IV as a stand-alone plate and is also considered equally reliable in hard use and against multiple hits as 1" plates, but I haven't done enough research to tell if any of the thinner plates I've come across qualify. From checking several sources, it seems that plates designed to pass the newer NIJ 0101.06 test protocols tend to be thicker (0.9-1.1"), while body armor inserts that only pass the old standards can be had down to 0.7" thick or so.

Plastics and ceramic composites are miraculously light for the protection they give, but no one ever said you could make rifle-resistant body armor from thin sheets of such materials. TL8 body armor that helps against rifles is a lot bulkier than any historical armor worn in the field (but roughly the same final weight, as professional soldiers of today are probably fairly similar in strength and endurance as well-fed, active humans throughout history).
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Last edited by Icelander; 06-14-2019 at 06:05 PM.
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2019, 06:58 PM   #35
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Modern Body Armor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
From what I can find, there aren’t any body armors that are made of composite metal foam (CMF) on the market, so it’s not going to be available in Icelander’s campaign.
Well, probably not.

That is, I plan to feature mostly commercially available off-the-shelf (COTS) equipment, arms, armor, radios and everything else, and require legal justifications for gear normally not available to everyone.

However, the PCs do have 100 points invested in a billionaire Patron with extensive connections, who funds their Monster Hunting activities lavishly and pays the PCs well.

The personal Wealth of the PCs* ranges from Comfortable (Alice Talbot is technically not a Monster Hunter, she's a college student who works part time for J.R. Kessler, the Patron) to Filthy Rich (Teddy Smith was paid a full salary as a senior PSC operator for all the 23 years he was lost in the Bermuda Triangle and the proceeds were invested on his behalf by Kessler's business managers). 'Typical' Wealth for the active Monster Hunters is between Wealthy and Very Wealthy, depending on seniority and whether they have collected significant stock options.

All of which is to say, if a given technology exists and is too cool to ignore, there is theoretically a chance that one of the companies manufacturing prototypes happens to be partially owned by Kessler. This is especially likely for Texas-based companies or more generally, companies based around the Gulf Coast or perhaps the South as a whole. Kessler owns more assets in Caribbean countries, France and a number of African countries than he does anywhere north of the Mason-Dixie line (where, aside from Washington D.C., Kessler also seems to have spent very little of his time).

Even if Kessler doesn't own any companies making space age armor out of prototype TL9 materials, I strongly suspect that Kessler will have a stake in a small custom body armor company, if only because real world companies won't have the same need for protection against razor sharp sacrifical knives, Bite ST 30 fangs, demonic talons, swords and axes swung by ST 15-20 maniacs, etc.

But perhaps his Monster Hunters can buy COTS concealable ballistic armor and rifle-resistant plates, with only the multi-threat melee layer being a custom design. And, at any rate, the LEOs that the PCs are dealing with will certainly have ordinary COTS body armor, albeit possibly chosen to be useful against as wide a range of threat as is practical, without making it unacceptable for mundane use.

*I'm leaving 'Nonc' Morel out entirely, as he is in no way employed by J.R. Kessler... or anyone else. Francois Morel St. Patin claims to be a Druid, pact-bonded to Papa Mangrove, and the sworn Wilderness Guardian of his patch of the Atchafalaya Basin. Monetary concerns are beneath him and he consents to aid J.R. Kessler out of friendship and shared goals, not for pay. Also, 'Nonc' Morel more or less exists in a barter economy of a compex network of favors and obligations throughout his vast Cajun clan. And, in any case, 'Nonc' Morel will never buy body armor or any other modern equipment. He carries a gnarled stick (T-Papa, his Druid Staff) and a sling. When he brought a 'modern' weapon for self-defence, it was a black-powder Colt SAA .45 LC inherited from a great-grandfather.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Last edited by Icelander; 06-14-2019 at 10:47 PM.
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2019, 11:53 PM   #36
chandley
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Modern Body Armor

I own this:

https://tacticalscorpiongear.com/tac...copy-8-37.html

which I bought to run Murph with. With the side protection, it's 26 lbs and rated to NIJ III (+, in that it is also rated against 30-06). $176 on ebay, no questions asked, shipped in a few days. You could probably still get it that way, and for about that price.

NIJ III means DR 25. 30-06 is +1 damage over a 7.62 NATO, so DR 26 isnt completely uncalled for. The plates are about an inch thick, front plate is 10lbs, back plate is 10 lbs, each side plate is 2.5(ish) lbs. Coverage is pretty complete for "Chest", if you argue the shoulders are "Arm" and below the ribs is "Abdomen". Has an armor gap in the armpit like a plate harness does (if you are wearing the side protectors). Armpit is a vitals strike at -8 and would bypass DR if used an impaling or piercing attack.

It is concealable with a winter coat with side plates or with a suit jacket without the side plates, but in either config, I'd hit the wearer with -1 DX for layering, as the thickness of the plates + carrier + coat definitely gets in the way.

A custom fitted plate carrier with better straps could remove that -1 DX though, it really is the carrier not putting things in the right place and getting in the way itself that is the biggest part of the problem.

A heavy coat is up to +4 for Holdout. Technically this is -26 to holdout for DR 26, but that rule in High-Tech never made sense to me. The coat wont let you conceal from a pat down (klunk klunk eh whats this? +1 to search, but honestly... dont roll) but eyeball search? Sure, could beat that out.

Comfort? Mostly its just 26lbs on your shoulders unless you belt the carrier or replace the carrier. Definitely wearable all day, no more bulky than the vests I see police wearing. Wear a shirt under it though, you'll rub your nipples right off if you run in it for any length of time (like I said... Murph...). Honestly less bulky and more comfortable (and easier to conceal!) than the DR 8 plate harness I have, even if Im only wearing the torso armor.
__________________
My GURPS stuff
chandley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2019, 05:55 AM   #37
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Tactical Scorpion Gear 4 Pc Level III+ / AR500 Body Armor Bearcat Molle Vest

Quote:
Originally Posted by chandley View Post
I own this:

https://tacticalscorpiongear.com/tac...copy-8-37.html

which I bought to run Murph with. With the side protection, it's 26 lbs and rated to NIJ III (+, in that it is also rated against 30-06). $176 on ebay, no questions asked, shipped in a few days. You could probably still get it that way, and for about that price.
It's a very close cousin to the Tactical Scorpion 4 Pc Level III AR500 Body Armor Muircat 11x14 Vest, which has already been featured in my campaign, for the cogent and simple reason that it was literally stocked at Walmart, which resulted in an NPC picking it up when he made a stop there a few hours before he anticipated a firefight.

Diego the sicario used to work for Triple Canopy and Academi, so he knew well that better plate carriers exist and much lighter plates with the same protective value, but none of them were available to him at that moment, paying cash, without making a detour from his route or wasting time.

As it turned out, Diego might as well have been naked or wearing top-of-the-line Level IV ceramic plates and it wouldn't have mattered. Teddy Smith (PC) shot him in the forehead with a 62 grain Mk318 SOST round from a short-barrelled 5.56x45mm rifle (KAC SR-15E3 CQB Mod 2 M-LOK) ironically without even noticing whether Diego might be wearing body armor or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chandley View Post
NIJ III means DR 25. 30-06 is +1 damage over a 7.62 NATO, so DR 26 isnt completely uncalled for. The plates are about an inch thick, front plate is 10lbs, back plate is 10 lbs, each side plate is 2.5(ish) lbs. Coverage is pretty complete for "Chest", if you argue the shoulders are "Arm" and below the ribs is "Abdomen". Has an armor gap in the armpit like a plate harness does (if you are wearing the side protectors). Armpit is a vitals strike at -8 and would bypass DR if used an impaling or piercing attack.
Yes, I've been looking at a lot of coverage photos and I honestly don't see how a 10" x 12" shooter cut plate over an average Chest could practically cover much more. With side plates added and a decent curve, I think the coverage is very similar to a lot of historical munition armour.

I'm still mulling it over, but I think I'll give such four plate configurations, with the size of the largest plates proportionate to the wearer, either 'full' coverage (with Armor Gaps, Chinks in Armor and critical hits that bypass armor representing less than full coverage) or alternatively, 5/6, with the argument that Shoulder Pads in High-Tech cover 1/6 of the Chest as well as the Shoulder part of Arm, and that this part of the Chest is uncovered with shooter or swimmer cut plates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chandley View Post
It is concealable with a winter coat with side plates or with a suit jacket without the side plates, but in either config, I'd hit the wearer with -1 DX for layering, as the thickness of the plates + carrier + coat definitely gets in the way.

A custom fitted plate carrier with better straps could remove that -1 DX though, it really is the carrier not putting things in the right place and getting in the way itself that is the biggest part of the problem.
Yes, from what I can tell, this is a substandard carrier, but, really, given that the PC + plates costs less than just the plate carrier of many competitors, it shouldn't come as a surprise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chandley View Post
A heavy coat is up to +4 for Holdout. Technically this is -26 to holdout for DR 26, but that rule in High-Tech never made sense to me. The coat wont let you conceal from a pat down (klunk klunk eh whats this? +1 to search, but honestly... dont roll) but eyeball search? Sure, could beat that out.
Yes, basing Holdout on DR definitely doesn't work, in that improvised body armor made of brick or wood is not much easier to conceal than an equal thickness of polyethylene or ceramic composites. Similarly, as long as both are rigid and of equal size, I'd think it would be easier to conceal a 0.2" steel plate than a 0.98" polyethylene plate under clothing, even though the steel one is significantly heavier and they have the same DR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chandley View Post
Comfort? Mostly its just 26lbs on your shoulders unless you belt the carrier or replace the carrier. Definitely wearable all day, no more bulky than the vests I see police wearing. Wear a shirt under it though, you'll rub your nipples right off if you run in it for any length of time (like I said... Murph...). Honestly less bulky and more comfortable (and easier to conceal!) than the DR 8 plate harness I have, even if Im only wearing the torso armor.
Thanks a lot for the feedback and the good suggestions on statting. In your honour, one of the security personnel on the Penemue shall do crossfit and run the Murph in full tactical gear every day.

---

Incidentally, this is exactly the kind of data I'm looking for, whether it's on body armor forumites own, used at work or wish they owned.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Last edited by Icelander; 06-15-2019 at 06:17 AM.
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2019, 06:40 AM   #38
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Modern Body Armor

Current CMF research looks to be primarily at North Carolina State University. Here is one of the most recent news blurbs, with a fistful of links to the previous ones. Weight is somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 that of RHA of equal DR, which isn’t quite as good as improved ceramic IIRC, but it doesn’t shatter upon absorbing a hit. Up to you if Kessler has significant ties to that particular university.

Late Edit: The head researcher’s name - Afsaneh Rabiei - intrigued me, so I did a little digging. Turns out she did her undergraduate work in the mid-80’s (when Strange Things started happening) in Tehran, which IIRC isn’t terribly far from a Vile Vortex (the one around Mohenjo-daro). She later did her PhD work in Tokyo in the mid-90’s (when Strange Things were starting to ramp up), which isn’t terribly far from another Vile Vortex (the one around the Devil’s Sea). I personally feel this sets her up well to have experienced Something, and perhaps her research is intended to help more than just the soldiers fighting our mundane enemies...
__________________
GURPS Overhaul

Last edited by Varyon; 06-15-2019 at 10:59 PM.
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2019, 06:19 AM   #39
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Afsaneh Rabiei and CMF Research

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Current CMF research looks to be primarily at North Carolina State University. Here is one of the most recent news blurbs, with a fistful of links to the previous ones. Weight is somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 that of RHA of equal DR, which isnít quite as good as improved ceramic IIRC, but it doesnít shatter upon absorbing a hit. Up to you if Kessler has significant ties to that particular university.

Late Edit: The head researcherís name - Afsaneh Rabiei - intrigued me, so I did a little digging. Turns out she did her undergraduate work in the mid-80ís (when Strange Things started happening) in Tehran, which IIRC isnít terribly far from a Vile Vortex (the one around Mohenjo-daro). She later did her PhD work in Tokyo in the mid-90ís (when Strange Things were starting to ramp up), which isnít terribly far from another Vile Vortex (the one around the Devilís Sea). I personally feel this sets her up well to have experienced Something, and perhaps her research is intended to help more than just the soldiers fighting our mundane enemies...
Ah, that's a good thought.

Yes, certainly Ms. Rabiei could be developing armour against more than bullets from having lived close to two Vile Vortices. For that matter, the 'Bermuda Triagle' lozenge is not all that distant from North Carolina, certainly close enough for there to exist ley line confluences and Places of Power in greater concentrations than in places like LA, New York or Gary, Indiana.

But should I relate her to Kessler or to one of the other groups out there aware of the occult? I don't want to give the impression that Kessler is at the center of all that happens at all related to the paranormal. He's locally important in the Caribbean and the Gulf Coast, but his occult organization hardly covers the entire US, let alone the world.

Considering Ms, Rabiei's origins, history and background, what might her connection to the world of the weird be?

If she has inborn abilities of her own (or was very close with someone who did), she might be among those few in the world who became aware of the supernatural in the 1980s. In that case, she might now be affiliated with an Iranian organization or group founded by some people she went to school with in Tehran.

If Ms. Rabiei did not learn of the existence of the supernatural until later, she might have stumbled into a group of occultists in Japan in the 1990s. Most Japanese secret societies are probably fairly chauvinistic, even xenophobic*, in their membership policies, but she might have belonged to a group of expatriates or a rare multi-ethnic group of Japanese and foreigners. Or she might have been accepted to an extraordinary degree into an otherwise almost entirely Japanese organization.

Or, of course, Ms. Rabiei might be associated with an American group. As the US is so very large and without a unified, official response to the supernatural, there will be any number of people who've learned the truth and found others who also believe. While less than one in a thousand of Americans belong to any kind of 'occult underworld', more than an order of magnitude more than this are aware that something odd is going on, little though they may realize about the big picture. And at the start of 2019, it's been long enough since the first people became aware for groups, clubs, secret societies and other organizations to have come into existence.

Any group to which Ms. Rabiei belongs could be one devoted to the secret protection of an unaware humanity, but more likely, they would be some of the much more numerous 'neutral' groups, that are founded to share research and study of the occult and might be in the process of evolving into something resembling Lodges (of GURPS Voodoo) or the Cabal, if less powerful, without the great antiquity and not (yet) actively malevolent.

What do you think, what should be the true story of a fictionalized Afsaneh Rabiei in my campaign?

Would anyone like to propose a group of occultists for her to belong to, whether it's a few friends from school or a full-fledged secret society with thirty years of history?

*At least judging from what my friend, who lives in Tokyo and is married to a Japanese woman, tells me about mainstream attitudes toward race and ethnicity that are current in Japanese society. Things that would be considered extremely hateful and unacceptalbe expressions of racism in US or Western European societies (and be against the law in some of them) are viewed as perfectly ordinary features of Japanese society. A foreigner might work in a Japenese company for a couple of decades, live in Tokyo that long and speak Japanese fluently, but to most people, he's still a foreigner and can never belong in the way that a Japanese person could. Oh, and apparently, virulent, hateful racism toward other Asian ethnicities is not the slightest bit taboo even among ordinary, middle-class people who speak good English and interact with Westerners daily.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2019, 08:27 AM   #40
fula farbrorn
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Default Re: NIJ Levels in DR Ratings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
While the protection against other threats can be hard to estimate, the ballistic protection of NIJ Levels in GURPS is pretty straightforward and fairly accurate (as accurate as a single rating can be).

NIJ Rating
Level II: DR 10
Level IIIA: DR 12
Level III: DR 25
Level IV: DR 36

All DR ratings are the minimum required to pass testing for this level of protection. Technically, NIJ Levels are not inclusive and the real-world factors that govern penetration are sufficiently complex that it is theoretically possible to pass Level IV testing, but fail Level III, for example (hardened steel plates of a certain thickness might stop 166 grain M2 rounds from .30_06, for example, but fail against high-velocity 55 grain M193 5.56x45mm), but as GURPS only gives a single DR rating against all bullet types, such complexities are ignored unless a GM feels like adjusting DR ratings against specific projectiles at specific velocities.

How would we Stat up a NIJ III/IV vest ? they do exist and are becoming more and more prolific

one possible solution would be to adjust it into something like this

Level II: DR 10
Level IIIA: DR 12
Level III: DR 25
Level IV: ?? ??
Level III/IV: DR 36

Not sure what rules or DR it would benefit from though

https://www.vestguard.co.uk/hard-arm...-iiiiv-34.html
fula farbrorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
body armor, cutting-edge armor design, modern firepower

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.