Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-11-2019, 11:41 PM   #1
Jaware
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Default Thoughts on building/executing Technical grappling scenerio with Tentacles.

I was sitting at the local steak and shake with one of my players and we were talking about the Baulders Gate 3 trailer that dropped where a dude turns into a mind flayer.

That spun off our topic of conversation. I, Personally, have always been a big fan of the lore behind the illithids.

I decided that I was going to try and build a racial template for gurps in my downtime.

Long story short. Im having some issues. Mostly on what exacty to use and how it applies and effects the outcome of the build.

For example, I would assume the tentacles would be built as a base "Extra Arms, 4" and then applying extra-flexible, I would imagine Weak or very weak as well.

as honestly I dont see them using them to wield weapons or shields or what have you. I still see them being used as manipulators though. Holding a map, Potion, Ink and Quill, etc.

The particular place where I happen to be stumped is applying them to grappling. More specifically Technical Grappling. And how to Modifiers Apply to that.

For example, Extra arms 4, (Extra-Flexible +50%, Short -50%, Very Weak -50%)
Costs 20Cp.

Which seems reasonably priced or so to me.

However. Short brutalizes the usefulness of the arm to near uselessness.
According to martial arts 114, Each arm after the first gives +2 to hit with a grapple, to prevent your opponent form breaking free, and to help you break free. Then if you have more limbs you get a +3 to pin or resist pin from an opponent.

then right underneath that, short says you NEVER receive any of the Close Combat Bonuses Above, and any attacks using only the short arms are at a -2 regardless of the number of limbs you have.

Now, if that applies directly as written, That is a 20 cp advantage that literally does almost nothing. and even then, cant even do that well.

Now all of that gets even weirder with Technical Grappling.

How I would imagine the tentacles working, is not great for weapons. They just wouldn't be coordinated/strong enough/long enough to be of any use trying to wield a weapon is all but the most dire of circumstance. However, being grappled by 4 octopus type tentacles around the neck/head would be a horrifying experience and extremely hard to bet out of, ( eg large amount of cp applied)

However, by the book, physical weapon wielding and grappling seem to be a package deal, either both or neither of them.

Anybody thought of a better way to work it out? or perhaps see a mistake in my logic or interpretation of the books? Any insight?
Jaware is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 01:11 AM   #2
Verjigorm
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
Default Re: Thoughts on building/executing Technical grappling scenerio with Tentacles.

Simple solution: Don't make them Short. Mindflayers are SM0, so they're tentacles by default are reach C, and adding Short doesn't do anything for you. In the case of Mindflayers, they seem to be all over the place in terms of how long their tentacles are, with earlier editions having shorter tentacles, and the newer art showing longer tentacles. If you give them Long tentacles, they can snatch out to Reach 1. I'm going to assume ST12, or ST 10 with +2 Arm Strength(Tentacles Only, -20%) that gives the tentacles ST 4 or 5.

A Mindflayer who wants to snatch someone by up by the head gets +4 to hit with only it's tentacles, and +8 if it uses it's hands as well. That allows them to easily target the Face/Neck at +1 or +5, or the skull at +0 to +4. This allows for them to easily grab a hold of somebody, and if they use their hands, they can easily use deceptive attacks to penalize their opponent's ability to defend.

The low ST of the tentacles precludes them from using most weapons: you need atleast ST5 to get into the smaller Knife weapons, and your base damage of 1d-5 or 1d-4 thrust and 1d-3 or 4 swing arn't going to go well with the low modifiers for those weapons. The best tactic you have is to snatch someone.
__________________
A shadu an la illa illah Allah, we shadu anna Muhammadar Rasul
Verjigorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 03:52 PM   #3
Jaware
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Default Re: Thoughts on building/executing Technical grappling scenerio with Tentacles.

But I don't use vanilla grappling.

I use technical grappling.

And Control points are based on St.


Meaning those St 4 or 5 Tentacles will be the literal weakest grab possible. and therefore super easy to break free.

The bigger picture is the point costs. It costs an Enormous amount of Character Points for 4 extra arms. While I dont think they should be cheap, I do think that they should be reasonably priced.

Without some modifiers to make them cheaper, they are just to expensive for the usefullness of the ability.

Eg. Grapples dont come up very often anyway and the tentacles would still be arms, and therefore unarmed attack. Meaning someone parries with a weapon and they end up just doing straight damage to the tentacles without judo.

10 cp an arm is just overpriced for 90% grapple, 10% utility limbs.




Also, Arm strength cant be bought for more than 3 limbs. Basic set says to just buy up strength instead.

Last edited by Jaware; 06-12-2019 at 04:04 PM. Reason: Forgot to tack on Arm St tidbit
Jaware is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 04:02 PM   #4
Jaware
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Default Re: Thoughts on building/executing Technical grappling scenerio with Tentacles.

I believe the Tentacle strength could be made much more useable by modifying the weak/veryweak modifier with an accessibility "Only for non-grappling uses" at say -20% and -45% or so.

That would allow the tentacles to pretty much not be useable to weapons and or heavy tasks etc. while still retaining the the usability of the much less usefull grapple.
Jaware is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 04:15 PM   #5
Refplace
 
Refplace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Yukon, OK
Default Re: Thoughts on building/executing Technical grappling scenerio with Tentacles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaware View Post
But I don't use vanilla grappling.

I use technical grappling.

And Control points are based on St.

Meaning those St 4 or 5 Tentacles will be the literal weakest grab possible. and therefore super easy to break free.
You can use them with Constriction Attack, doubling their CP. That could cost just an extra 5 points, see Technical Grappling p. 27.
Another thing to consider is go for the special effect over the mechanics.
Born Biter for a larger mouth could be from mouth tentacles instead of a larger jaw. So Constriction Attack + Born Biter + Extra ST mouth Only.
If the tentacles are only used for biting you could skip the Extra Arms and have an economical but powerful attack.
__________________
Looking for group in my area
My GURPS official contributions
My GURPS fan contribution and blog:
REFPLace GURPS Landing Page
My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items)
My GURPS Wiki entries
Refplace is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 05:20 PM   #6
Jaware
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Default Re: Thoughts on building/executing Technical grappling scenerio with Tentacles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
You can use them with Constriction Attack, doubling their CP. That could cost just an extra 5 points, see Technical Grappling p. 27.
Another thing to consider is go for the special effect over the mechanics.
Born Biter for a larger mouth could be from mouth tentacles instead of a larger jaw. So Constriction Attack + Born Biter + Extra ST mouth Only.
If the tentacles are only used for biting you could skip the Extra Arms and have an economical but powerful attack.
ouuuuhhhhh I missed that part of constriction attack in TG.
Jaware is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 05:57 PM   #7
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: Thoughts on building/executing Technical grappling scenerio with Tentacles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaware View Post
ouuuuhhhhh I missed that part of constriction attack in TG.
Iím not sure if you have the new shorter fantastic dungeon grappling, but there are some simplifications there that might appeal to you. One of the things that a construction attack allows is suffocation regardless of target hit location (Within reason, of course. That is a GM call.)
__________________
Gaming Ballistic, LLC: Home of Dragon Heresy, Hall of Judgment, and hand-made viking shields.
Now Funding on Kickstarter: Nordlond Sagas: Three New books for the DFRPG
Pre-Order on Backerkit: Four Perilous Journeys: New Adventures plus physical accessories for The Fantasy Trip. FIVE adventures for TFT, written by David Pulver and the team of Christopher R. Rice and J. Edward Tremlett.
DouglasCole is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 06:03 PM   #8
Jaware
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Default Re: Thoughts on building/executing Technical grappling scenerio with Tentacles.

Sadly That is one that I do not happen to own.
Jaware is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2019, 08:02 PM   #9
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Thoughts on building/executing Technical grappling scenerio with Tentacles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaware View Post
those St 4 or 5 Tentacles will be the literal weakest grab possible. and therefore super easy to break free.
Even though TG47's chart only goes up to "two arms and 2 legs", TG7 has guidelines on how to calculate higher Grip ST for many limbs. Cole's "squicky things" example (ie it's an alien facehugger, obviously) gives an example of an 8-legged creature attaching to the face and how you calculate their combined grip ST.

Basically you just sum up all the basic lifts. It's sort of a diminishing returns situation which is a little disappointing. Would be a little more fun to just sum up all that ST directly instead of getting a lesser final ST from summing up basic lifts.

Like if I am a 4-armed mini-Goro with ST 10, compare these options:
1-armed grappled (trained ST x 0.5) = ST 5 so 1d-4 control points.
2-armed grappled (trained ST x 1 ) = ST 10 so 1d-2 control points
4 armed grappled (basic lift 20x2=40) = ST 14 so 1d-0 control points

Still an appealing improvement, but it begins to scale back. Adding the final 2 arms boosts the ST 1 less than adding the 2nd arm. Whereas if it'd been ST 15 for 3 and ST 20 for 4, that's some scary grappling.

Due to the diminishing returns, it becomes appealing to just have separate sets of limbs doing entirely different grappling actions, so you get more max control points. Two pairs of arms each securing 10 CP on 2 different locations might be a lot more attractive than 4 arms securing 14 CP on one location.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
You can use them with Constriction Attack, doubling their CP.
The sad thing about that is that with ST 4 tentacles (guessing the base ST for the Mind Flayer must be 16, since they were defined as "very weak" at 1/4 ST) is with thrust 1d-5, doubled CP isn't going to matter 5/6 of the time when attacking with a single tentacle.

It's the same problem encountered when weak creatures try to shove: doubled damage for purposes of knockback is of no help unless you do at least 1 basic damage.

Unless using the "rule of 10" from pyramid 3-83 (avoids 0s) I'd way rather have Constriction Attack instead double trained ST for the purposes of determining thrust Control Points. 4>8 would give 1d-3 instead of (1d-5)*2 which is a little more useful for those single-tentacle attacks.

Last edited by Plane; 06-12-2019 at 08:11 PM.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2019, 11:48 AM   #10
Jaware
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Default Re: Thoughts on building/executing Technical grappling scenerio with Tentacles.

Yeah, I used TG7s process of determining grip st for multiple appendages.

I just cant find a way to make the extra arms efficient for their cost/usefulness.

Having Multiple arms is either Straight Useless. or Super OP. There is no in between.

Like you said, doubling 0 doesn't do anything.

and the only thing worse than doubling 0 is paying some 20-30 Character Points and then 5 for Constriction attack add on to double 0

Personally I would see a decent tentacle grapple putting a good 1d to 1d+2 Control on some poor sap. With that number being a Very Good grip, But not an impossible to escape grip.


That number isn't impossible to break out of by either skilled or strong adventurers, but it is a dangerous grab.average 3-5 CP is quite a bit from a single grab. Normal people would be in quite the pickle.

How I would treat the brain eating part would be just a simple bite. Probably from a Large beak. and probably some sort of armor divisor. Since helmets stack so much dr on the skull anyway.

Doing so would allow them to spend the CP to reduce the hit location penalty down to the grappling penalty as per TG5. if damage injury gets dealt to the brain the *4 damage multiplier would very much simulate the "Instant Death" from having ones brain removed. If just because they can choose to hold their grapple and "Worry" dealing straight damage again. It wouldn't take just a turn or two before Knockdown/Stunning/Grapple Penalties/Shock turns the tide of the fight drastically in the mind flayers favor. And that's without a choke hold as well.
Jaware is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
extra arms, modifiers, technical grappling, tentacles

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.