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Old 11-04-2013, 06:48 AM   #31
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I think the moral of the story is that very few people had DR 10 (4-ish mm) plate on every square inch of their body. My understanding, and I believe Dan has physically measured museum pieces, that a "4mm breastplate" would be 2mm in some places, 4mm at the thickest over the vitals.
Well, '2mm in some places' is precisely what the Chinks rule is for, right?
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:55 AM   #32
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

Invulnerable to damage on heavily armoured locations. Enough armour to get DR 10 is incredibly expensive and heavy but they are not immune to combat; heavy weapons still knock them down, grappling still takes them out of action.

According to LowTech Cheap Segmented Plate (the cheapest) across the whole body costs $3660.
According to LowTech Plate (the lightest normal) across the whole body weighs 110lb.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:56 AM   #33
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Well, '2mm in some places' is precisely what the Chinks rule is for, right?
Yes, but a warhammer, which is still on the ST scale, swung, will do sw+4, which for ST 14 is 2d+4, or DR 11, which handily penetrates DR 10, chinks or no.

If you rescale melee damage, then ST 16 is 1d+2, and the +4 should be STx1.3 or so, or about 2d imp, which will not penetrate DR 10 (but if you give it an armor divisor, it will).

And crossbows won't help unless it's a gigantic seige crossbow - the 740-lb. draw example in the Deadly Spring, was shockingly inefficient, doing about 3.3 points of damage based on energy and cross-section. Even an AP head would be foiled by DR 7.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:57 AM   #34
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

The loadouts book will show how thick various pieces of armour were. A harness might be DR 7-10 on the head and chest, DR 4-6 on the back, and DR 3-4 on the arms and legs. Plus the joints are only covered by mail.
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Old 11-04-2013, 07:37 AM   #35
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

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So were heavy plate-armoured combatants outright invulnerable in combat time? As of Low-Tech, the only way to beat them with ST13ish seems to be a highly skilled archer/crossbowman making a Bodkin shot at Chinks (reducing DR to 2)*, and not a warhammer or similar weapon (which mostly fails to penetrate).

* == Deadly Spring reduces the usefulness of this approach, but I'm not sure whether it becomes fully non-viable compared to a mle weapon.
If you're using Low Tech armor, you should know that that makes it literally impossible to have DR 10 everywhere.
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Old 11-04-2013, 07:54 AM   #36
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

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Yes, but a warhammer, which is still on the ST scale, swung, will do sw+4, which for ST 14 is 2d+4, or DR 11, which handily penetrates DR 10, chinks or no.

.
So maybe you don't allow ST14 in realistic games.

You've got to be careful about mixing realism and cinematic settings and tropes.
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Old 11-04-2013, 08:51 AM   #37
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

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Which, when striking hard armor, is for practical purposes instantaneous. Sharpness really only matters if your weapon is substantially harder than the armor you're hitting.
A rectangular bar with a 2mm wide edge will concentrate the striking force better than a rectangular bar with a 4mm wide edge.
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Old 11-04-2013, 09:28 AM   #38
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

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A rectangular bar with a 2mm wide edge will concentrate the striking force better than a rectangular bar with a 4mm wide edge.
Flanged maceheads certainly seem to lend historical support to the idea that some degree of sharpness is relevant.

However, attempting to strike through someone's armor with a 2mm thick ruler seems likely to simply snap the ruler. My money would be on both of those 'bars' being useless against armor but the 4mm making a better showing because it holds together better. (Note also that the thicker bar has twice as much mass as well as twice as much striking surface. The only thing 'diluted' by the increased cross-section is any 'follow-through' contributed by the wielder's body during the impact. Obviously actual cases of sharpening don't usually involve that much mass reduction.)
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Old 11-04-2013, 09:56 AM   #39
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
DR10 is enough to be mostly safe from SMGs and suffer very mild wounds even from rifles.
Since you're mentioning SMGs, you seem to be including TL6+ rifles. While taking 8 or so points from an AK-47's 5d+1pi or M-16's 5d is better than 18 points without armour, I wouldn't call it "very mild" wounds, and full-powered rifles do more damage than that.
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Old 11-04-2013, 11:03 AM   #40
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Flanged maceheads certainly seem to lend historical support to the idea that some degree of sharpness is relevant.
That, and general physics.

Quote:
However, attempting to strike through someone's armor with a 2mm thick ruler seems likely to simply snap the ruler.
While \, some of the discussion on the thread has digressed in the direction of whether cutting is 'good' against armor, my only concern is that cutting is better relative to crushing, in terms of a GURPS armor penetration characteristic.

Quote:
My money would be on both of those 'bars' being useless against armor but the 4mm making a better showing because it holds together better. (Note also that the thicker bar has twice as much mass as well as twice as much striking surface. The only thing 'diluted' by the increased cross-section is any 'follow-through' contributed by the wielder's body during the impact. Obviously actual cases of sharpening don't usually involve that much mass reduction.)
I think the basic fact I was getting at, that narrower edges penetrate better, would bear out if we controlled for or equalized the weight and durability of the body of the striking object.
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