Damage and wounding readjustment

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Not maces, not lances, not even raven-beaks or anti-plating-intended warhammers unless they have AD(2).

Sounds about right. FWIW it isn't an "anti-plating-intended" weapon unless it has AD (2)

DR10 is enough to be mostly safe from SMGs and suffer very mild wounds even from rifles. Make that plate out of titanium, and it gets 1/3 the mass for the same DR.

The titanium mod in HT was intended for Basic Set armour, which is seriously over weight. If you want to make real armour from titanium then the weight might be around 2/3 of a steel equivalent.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Sounds about right. FWIW it isn't an "anti-plating-intended" weapon unless it has AD (2)

Which basically means only drills, shears, and bodkin point arrows. The latter is basically useless if taken together with the Deadly Spring versus DR10 plate.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Stupid Jedi

Wouldn't it be simpler to add another damage type (chopping) to distingish between axes and swords?

maybe, but the actually new damage should be slashing, for swords, that new type would be lower damage for higher multiplier.
But I think it's easier if all damage types followed the "pi" model(with + and -)

Originally Posted by sjard

Pretty much. Edged weapons, especially swords, perform in a notoriously poor fashion against any hard target, especially armor.

On the anecdotal side, have you ever noticed some of the old illustrations of battle, when it comes to two important people in armor fighting, they frequently seem to be grabbing the helmet, pulling it forward and using the sword to strike at the now exposed back of the neck? That's about the only real way to do it. Get them to somehow expose unarmored sections and strike those.

I wonder how would these work under Technical Grappling

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Which basically means only drills, shears, and bodkin point arrows. The latter is basically useless if taken together with the Deadly Spring versus DR10 plate.

So it should be. 150 lb warbows have can barely penetrate a 2mm iron breastplate with the hardest bodkins.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

So it should be. 150 lb warbows have can barely penetrate a 2mm iron breastplate with the hardest bodkins.

The point is that with the inclusion of Deadly Spring adjustments, the only two remaining anti-plate weapons are tools like drills and shears, not combat weapons.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

DR10 is enough to be mostly safe from SMGs and suffer very mild wounds even from rifles. Make that plate out of titanium, and it gets 1/3 the mass for the same DR.

That should be 1/3 LESS mass, not 1/3 the mass. Typo/errata.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

maybe, but the actually new damage should be slashing, for swords, that new type would be lower damage for higher multiplier.
But I think it's easier if all damage types followed the "pi" model(with + and -)


I wonder how would these work under Technical Grappling

It works fine under RAW too, under Grab and Smash. It's easier under TG, as you can spend Control Points to offset hit location penalties.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

The point is that with the inclusion of Deadly Spring adjustments, the only two remaining anti-plate weapons are tools like drills and shears, not combat weapons.

It is impossible for any muscle-powered weapon to punch through DR 10 plate unless you use superhuman strength. Plate that heavy is over 4mm thick.

According to Williams:
it requires 475J for a hardened bodkin to punch through 4mm of mild steel. 1.5x more for hardened steel.
it requires 3400J for a musket ball to punch through 4mm of mild steel. 1.5x more for hardened steel.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

It is impossible for any muscle-powered weapon to punch through DR 10 plate unless you use superhuman strength.

So were heavy plate-armoured combatants outright invulnerable in combat time? As of Low-Tech, the only way to beat them with ST13ish seems to be a highly skilled archer/crossbowman making a Bodkin shot at Chinks (reducing DR to 2)*, and not a warhammer or similar weapon (which mostly fails to penetrate).

* == Deadly Spring reduces the usefulness of this approach, but I'm not sure whether it becomes fully non-viable compared to a mêlée weapon.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

So were heavy plate-armoured combatants outright invulnerable in combat time? As of Low-Tech, the only way to beat them with ST13ish seems to be a highly skilled archer/crossbowman making a Bodkin shot at Chinks (reducing DR to 2)*, and not a warhammer or similar weapon (which mostly fails to penetrate).

* == Deadly Spring reduces the usefulness of this approach, but I'm not sure whether it becomes fully non-viable compared to a mêlée weapon.

I think the moral of the story is that very few people had DR 10 (4-ish mm) plate on every square inch of their body. My understanding, and I believe Dan has physically measured museum pieces, that a "4mm breastplate" would be 2mm in some places, 4mm at the thickest over the vitals.