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Old 11-03-2013, 07:49 AM   #1
Figleaf23
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Default Damage and wounding readjustment

Hello,

Noting that I think damage and wounding for GURPS was established before they invented armor divisors, I'm considering the following as a house rule adjustment to damage and wounding:

Cr - no change

Cutting - wounding becomes x2, add a 1.5 armor divisor if the to-hit roll succeed by 2 or more.

Impaling - wounding changes to x1, armor divisor 2.

Impaling+ (where penetrating tip is followed by either a wound channel of of 40mm or more, OR wounding is aggravated by the object staying in the wound (e.g. an arrow) or by presumed retraction from the wound (e.g. spear) or similar mechanic) - wounding modifier 1.5, armor divisor 1.5.

Pi- and Pi - wounding unchanged at x0.5 and 1 respectively, add 1.5 armor divisor

Pi+ and above - no changes.

Comments, warnings, accolades ... ?

Last edited by Figleaf23; 11-05-2013 at 09:52 AM. Reason: Italicised portions changed following discussions
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Old 11-03-2013, 08:12 AM   #2
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

Cutting should have a 0.5 armor divisor, it is terrible against armor.
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Old 11-03-2013, 08:47 AM   #3
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
Cutting should have a 0.5 armor divisor, it is terrible against armor.
Cutting from a sword is bad against metal armor, but a battle axe does much better.

Shouldn't the primitive damage types from hand held weapons be dealt with individually or in smaller clusters?

I would really love to see some evidence of how different weapons behaved with different armor.
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Old 11-03-2013, 09:18 AM   #4
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
Cutting should have a 0.5 armor divisor, it is terrible against armor.
This would have some strange results:
  1. Sharpening a metal bar would reduce the amount of injury it causes even if its mass and striking velocity/power remain unchanged.
  2. Cold saws would be a terrible technology.
  3. Axes and swords would never, ever be used on the battlefield with armoured opponents, since humans have great trouble penetrating effective DR14+, but a couple of points past DR7 are doable.
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Old 11-03-2013, 12:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
Cutting should have a 0.5 armor divisor, it is terrible against armor.
A sharp is better than a blunt. Cutting should not be worse at penetrating armor than Crushing; rather it needs to be better.
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:03 PM   #6
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
This would have some strange results:[list=1][*]Sharpening a metal bar would reduce the amount of injury it causes even if its mass and striking velocity/power remain unchanged.
I suspect that the difference between a sword and an axe is similar to the difference between a rod and a hammer. Giving any weapon without a compact striking head a 0.5 armor divisor is plausible.
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
Impaling - wounding changes to x1, armor divisor 2.

Impaling+ (where penetrating tip is followed by either a wound channel of of 40mm or more, OR wounding is aggravated by the object staying in the wound (e.g. an arrow) or by presumed retraction from the wound (e.g. spear) or similar mechanic) - wounding modifier 1.5, armor divisor 1.5.
Which attacks do NOT have a object staying in the wound or being retracted from it? Are you imagining Impaling only being something that passes completely through someone and out the other side?
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Old 11-03-2013, 02:26 PM   #8
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
Cutting from a sword is bad against metal armor, but a battle axe does much better.

Shouldn't the primitive damage types from hand held weapons be dealt with individually or in smaller clusters?

I would really love to see some evidence of how different weapons behaved with different armor.
Actually, no, even a battle axe would have a hard time penetrating armor. It's hard to penetrate mail, and almost impossible to penetrate plate, swordsmen wouldn't even bother.
In my revised tables, Swords get a *2 multiplier to flesh, while axes get *1.5, but axes have a 50% greater base damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
This would have some strange results:
  1. Sharpening a metal bar would reduce the amount of injury it causes even if its mass and striking velocity/power remain unchanged.
Sharpening should increase damage, however, armor penetration should be the same, I know AD of 0.5 is too much, but if you cling to the standard damage system, it's the only solution. Alternatively(following my house rules), damage would remain the same sharpening it, but penetration on flesh would be greater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
[*]Cold saws would be a terrible technology.
Cold saws work because they remain cutting/denting for a long time, that would be very hard with a sword or axe, unless you're attacking a defenseless enemy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
[*]Axes and swords would never, ever be used on the battlefield with armoured opponents, since humans have great trouble penetrating effective DR14+, but a couple of points past DR7 are doable.[/list]
Cutting swords are almost useless against armoured opponents. That's reality, the reason swords were used was:
They are fast, you can attack and parry with them.
They have many options, you can thrust, you can cut, you can pommel, you can murder stroke, you can half sword.
They are noble, if you're carrying one, it means you're part of the warrior class, and that if someone tries to kill you, they'll have a hard time.
They are capture tools, when you attack a lord, you don't want to kill him, you want to grab him and ransom him, and then get rich, a sword accomplishes that, you would have a very bad time with a spear at close quarters. However, while it's used to capture a lord, when you're fighting a peasant, you can easily kill him(that's why in my modified table swords have a *2 multiplier.

As for axes, they have their own perks:
They are cheap, a peasant could have one.
They are heavy, if you hit the enemy well, he would have a hard time recovering.

Said that, remember, the most common weapon on a low tech battlefield is the spear, few people used axes or swords as their main weapon.
Also, remember that almost always axes were used together with something else, up to TL3 they were used with a shield, and when the shieldwalls closed, they were thrown away for a knife or sword, at TL3+ they were polearms, axe+spear+something else.

Also DR7 is rare, mail is DR4, maybe DR5, plate is DR6, cheap plate is DR5, TL2 rigid armor is DR3 or 4 most of the time.
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Last edited by gilbertocarlos; 11-03-2013 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 11-03-2013, 02:27 PM   #9
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
I suspect that the difference between a sword and an axe is similar to the difference between a rod and a hammer. Giving any weapon without a compact striking head a 0.5 armor divisor is plausible.
Quoted For Truth
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Old 11-03-2013, 03:24 PM   #10
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Default Re: Damage and wounding readjustment

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
...
Sharpening should increase damage, however, armor penetration should be the same,...
The sharper the edge, the more concentrated the force is on a narrower cross-section. This increases the ability to cut any substance, flesh, bone or steel, even though it still may not be enough to actually cut steel.
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