Running the opposition in GURPS

[Michael Thayne]

Recently, I experimented with re-recreating movie fight scenes with GURPS. I very quickly discovered something: the characters in many movies do not fight optimally according to GURPS!

For example, in the three-vs-one fight early in the samurai movie Yojimbo, the three criminals never seem to actually attack. This didn't stand out as strange until I watched the scene repeatedly (sometimes on slow motion), because it only takes the hero 3-4 seconds to kill or dismember all three bad guys. In GURPS terms, I suppose they wasted their time taking Move, Evaluate, or All-Out Defense maneuvers.

The climax of the Clint Eastwood movie Unforgiven is a bit harder to explain in GURPS terms. Here's the setup: Eastwood's character, William Munny, is out for revenge against the town that killed his friend Ned. He walks into the town's saloon with a shotgun drawn. No one else has a weapon out. Dialog happens, and Munny shoots the saloon owner. More dialog happens, and Munny tries to shoot the sherif, but the shotgun misfires. The sherif orders his men to kill Munny, and then Munny, the sherif, and the sherif's half-dozen or so deputies begin drawing pistols for the real gun battle.

However, at least two of the deputies don't even try to draw their pistols until after Munny shoots the sherif. The problem isn't merely that they lack the Fast-Draw skill, since there was a good two or three seconds between when they were ordered to kill Munny and when they actually drew their pistols. Nor do the rules for surprise seem to capture the situation—GURPS seems to say you can't be surprised if you've been watching someone have a conversation with your boss at gunpoint. The best game-mechanical explanation I can come up with is the hesitating deputies suffered from Combat Paralysis—but that's not a disadvantage even mooks usually have in GURPS.

All the same, neither scene strikes me as particularly unrealistic. I wouldn't accuse either movie of relying on mook chivalry to hand their respective heroes a win, because the antagonists' hesitation is a matter of seconds. I don't think even trained soldiers always do the thing that GURPS mechanics say is optimal—plenty of people may take cover even when GURPS says they should calmly return fire. Plus, even in GURPS there are situations where taking a Move or Evaluate maneuver in combat before attacking is the smart thing to do.

I'm curious to know if other GMs ever give their mooks Combat Paralysis, or have them deliberately make stupid decisions that fall short of cinematic "combat etiquette". I've definitely run fights where the bad guys got slaughtered while still aiming, but it wasn't deliberate, just what happens when one side has Fast-Draw and Gunslinger while the other doesn't.

[Jareth Valar]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Recently, I experimented with re-recreating movie fight scenes with GURPS. I very quickly discovered something: the characters in many movies do not fight optimally according to GURPS!

For example, in the three-vs-one fight early in the samurai movie Yojimbo, the three criminals never seem to actually attack. This didn't stand out as strange until I watched the scene repeatedly (sometimes on slow motion), because it only takes the hero 3-4 seconds to kill or dismember all three bad guys. In GURPS terms, I suppose they wasted their time taking Move, Evaluate, or All-Out Defense maneuvers.

The climax of the Clint Eastwood movie Unforgiven is a bit harder to explain in GURPS terms. Here's the setup: Eastwood's character, William Munny, is out for revenge against the town that killed his friend Ned. He walks into the town's saloon with a shotgun drawn. No one else has a weapon out. Dialog happens, and Munny shoots the saloon owner. More dialog happens, and Munny tries to shoot the sherif, but the shotgun misfires. The sherif orders his men to kill Munny, and then Munny, the sherif, and the sherif's half-dozen or so deputies begin drawing pistols for the real gun battle.

However, at least two of the deputies don't even try to draw their pistols until after Munny shoots the sherif. The problem isn't merely that they lack the Fast-Draw skill, since there was a good two or three seconds between when they were ordered to kill Munny and when they actually drew their pistols. Nor do the rules for surprise seem to capture the situation—GURPS seems to say you can't be surprised if you've been watching someone have a conversation with your boss at gunpoint. The best game-mechanical explanation I can come up with is the hesitating deputies suffered from Combat Paralysis—but that's not a disadvantage even mooks usually have in GURPS.

All the same, neither scene strikes me as particularly unrealistic. I wouldn't accuse either movie of relying on mook chivalry to hand their respective heroes a win, because the antagonists' hesitation is a matter of seconds. I don't think even trained soldiers always do the thing that GURPS mechanics say is optimal—plenty of people may take cover even when GURPS says they should calmly return fire. Plus, even in GURPS there are situations where taking a Move or Evaluate maneuver in combat before attacking is the smart thing to do.

I'm curious to know if other GMs ever give their mooks Combat Paralysis, or have them deliberately make stupid decisions that fall short of cinematic "combat etiquette". I've definitely run fights where the bad guys got slaughtered while still aiming, but it wasn't deliberate, just what happens when one side has Fast-Draw and Gunslinger while the other doesn't.

Other than blaming the age old excuse "movie plot/writing" I personally believe both of those scenes can easily be explained by failed Fright checks.

[WaterAndWindSpirit]

My mooks often do tactically stupid decisions.

But then again, few of them are trained soldiers.

Bunch of post apocalyptic raiders in clown getup high on some drugs just do AoA Strong even though their skills are pretty low (especially with the "Euphoria" DX penalty).

Orc raiders don't fight in formation, they just attack whomever's the closest.

Motorcycle outlaw gangs don't gang up on the most dangerous target, they just ride their motorcycle at semi-random and strike whomever seems like a fun target.

The closest call my PCs in an online game had was not with 10 strong 200 points demons, but with a 5 men strong 100 points SWAT team. True, my PCs were holding back and trying not to kill said SWAT team, they were just doing their jobs, but said SWAT tam came at them with less than lethal weapons too. One ready with a breaching shotgun, one with a ballistic shield, two behind the shield ready to toss a flashbang and a tear gas grenade, and the last one with a beanbag rounds shotgun. If they had been an enemy force using lethal force, it would have ended up a TPK. I did send the SWAT team as a wake up call, basically a way of saying "This is trained guys who act tactically,your characters are still there because these guys used less than lethal weapons and weren't informed of your paranormal abilities. Whn you're gonna face up a real threat, you'd better up your game.". They did take the advice to heart, and learned from their mistake.

[Anthony]

GURPS, like most RPGs, grossly overestimates the amount of time people spend in a fight trying to figure out what's going on and what they should do about it. A lot of this is because in a situation where the character has 1s to decide what to do, the player might be able to take a minute to decide.

It's hard to do anything about that in a tabletop game, though video games can run fights in real time. Melee combat games are usually pretty fast, but watch something like a CSGO match and look at just how little time is actually spent attacking as opposed to gathering information.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

However, at least two of the deputies don't even try to draw their pistols until after Munny shoots the sherif. The problem isn't merely that they lack the Fast-Draw skill, since there was a good two or three seconds between when they were ordered to kill Munny and when they actually drew their pistols. Nor do the rules for surprise seem to capture the situation—GURPS seems to say you can't be surprised if you've been watching someone have a conversation with your boss at gunpoint. The best game-mechanical explanation I can come up with is the hesitating deputies suffered from Combat Paralysis—but that's not a disadvantage even mooks usually have in GURPS.

Those deputies are likely not professionals, and are probably still hoping that the situation can be talked out. They don't want to have to kill someone, and so they don't draw until it's obvious it's Munny or them. They may well have Pacifism of some sort, too.

This is very much the point of the movie, really.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Anthony

GURPS, like most RPGs, grossly overestimates the amount of time people spend in a fight trying to figure out what's going on and what they should do about it. A lot of this is because in a situation where the character has 1s to decide what to do, the player might be able to take a minute to decide.

It's hard to do anything about that in a tabletop game, though video games can run fights in real time. Melee combat games are usually pretty fast, but watch something like a CSGO match and look at just how little time is actually spent attacking as opposed to gathering information.

Did you mean "grossly underestimates"?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Did you mean "grossly underestimates"?

yes, yes I did. RPG combat is basically 'this is what it would look like if people with enhanced time sense fought each other'.

[Gigermann]

MA113, "Untrained Fighters" has some good guidance for this sort of thing. The Unforgiven example might include some seconds of Stun for a failed Fright Check.

But I've had a similar problem: bad guys run by the GM don't make basic tactical errors like using Telegraphed attacks or All-Out all the time, because the GM knows better. As much as I hate to add additional die rolls, I've considered using a variation of the "Coin Toss" from the above section: for trained fighters, a 1 on 1d6 indicates the guy behaves in an appropriate "tactically unsound" manner; on a 1-2 for untrained fighters. I haven't figured out how to reduce the number of die rolls for that yet, other than to roll for the group or somesuch.

[Stormcrow]

This is a common filming technique for over-the-top action sequences. The bad guys surround the hero. They wave their arms and dance around, but attack one at a time. The camera is usually tight on the hero, so you can't tell exactly what all the bad guys are doing, just that they're doing *something*. Watch the old Hercules and Xena shows and you'll see this happen almost every episode.

GURPS doesn't cover it because it's silly and a camera trick to make the audience think that the hero is successfully taking on a horde of simultaneously attacking bad guys, when they're really doing boo such thing. Camera tricks don't work in GURPS.

[Culture20]

“Six enemies surround you. Five start waving their arms around and dancing.”
“Oh !%#^ Wizards! Everyone retreat!”