Simplified Jumping?

[naloth]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Definitely the opposite for my players. Unless the IA is being built in a strange way (to be fair, it often is), my players know that damage is not useful enough as an attack compared to other things

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Use Guns rather than IA? Use other abilities to attack rather than IA?

Point wise, DR doesn't do well protecting you against an equal cost IA, even when the DR is reduced to 2-3 points per level. All things being held equal, IA guy will beat DR guy in a one on one match up. Now that doesn't mean that either ability is badly priced. DR could work multiple times per turn for Reflection guy below which offsets the cost difference and reliance on others to shoot you.

Reflection on DR with a further enhancement that they can 'direct' it at others, letting them do silly things like run into a gun fight between the police and the villain throwing fire and direct all attacks at the villain, doing more damage than is likely reasonable.

That seems like it would be a waste of points unless ranged damage attacks are common enough that you could count on them being used against you. It's a catch 22. Ranged attacks are useful enough that they will be be common enough or that defense won't be worthwhile. Conversely if that type of defense becomes too common, most won't rely attacks that it works against.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

my last supers campaign one character took Reflection on DR with a further enhancement that they can 'direct' it at others.

how did you price it? PK at http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...30&postcount=2 suggested allowing this as a DX-based power block to choose targets other than original attacker if you had Selective Effect

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Plane

I


Those give Sealed though, which is what you need to prevent insects or shrinking supers from crawling into your DR gaps, forcefield or otherwise.

Actually the UT Life Support Fields can be Sealed _or_ "porous" to let in air molecules. They still keep out raindrops and insects either way.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Actually the UT Life Support Fields can be Sealed _or_ "porous" to let in air molecules. They still keep out raindrops and insects either way.

maybe Sealed w/ Selective Effect allows you to specify what SM you allow through for air purposes?

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by naloth

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Use Guns rather than IA? Use other abilities to attack rather than IA?

The guns thing was for earlier. Guns are much easier to carry around for a variety of reasons than armor but IA and DR are equally easy to carry around. As for attack powers, they generally go after Affliction, Binding, Rapier Wit, etc. first OR grab versatile abilities that rarely are used to make IAs.

Originally Posted by naloth

Point wise, DR doesn't do well protecting you against an equal cost IA, even when the DR is reduced to 2-3 points per level. All things being held equal, IA guy will beat DR guy in a one on one match up.

I was never arguing against that point, but rather pointing out how silly it is. Why would a person with nothing but DR fight someone with nothing but IA?

Originally Posted by naloth

That seems like it would be a waste of points unless ranged damage attacks are common enough that you could count on them being used against you. It's a catch 22. Ranged attacks are useful enough that they will be be common enough or that defense won't be worthwhile. Conversely if that type of defense becomes too common, most won't rely attacks that it works against.

Ranged attacks aren't the same thing as IA. When playing in a modern day campaign, it's safe to make guns easy access to not break verisimilitude. You could have zero supers take IA and DR with Reflection would still be useful even if we ignore melee attacks.

Originally Posted by Plane

how did you price it? PK at http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...30&postcount=2 suggested allowing this as a DX-based power block to choose targets other than original attacker if you had Selective Effect

Actually, reading that I think I didn't make it a further enhancement. I think I did a bit more complex thing than PK; Power Block to 'gain control' of it, then a skill roll to actually hit with it. I think the player took No Roll Required to be able to do this easily. (It's been too long, I'd likely do things differently now)

[naloth]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

The guns thing was for earlier. Guns are much easier to carry around for a variety of reasons than armor but IA and DR are equally easy to carry around. As for attack powers, they generally go after Affliction, Binding, Rapier Wit, etc. first OR grab versatile abilities that rarely are used to make IAs.

Guns might be more concealable, but they aren't something you'll want to have in your hand, ready to go while cruising around town. In fact, many places just carrying a gun in the open would cause considerable issues. Conversely I used to wear light Kevlar openly on my way to fencing and even heavier stuff isn't much worse than heavy clothing.

All of those others are good attacks, but I just don't see them as often as Innate Attacks.

I was never arguing against that point, but rather pointing out how silly it is. Why would a person with nothing but DR fight someone with nothing but IA?

Like most things, it's just a comparison. IA trumps DR in terms one to one usefulness. DR is more useful if you're taking attacks from lots of different sources.

Ranged attacks aren't the same thing as IA. When playing in a modern day campaign, it's safe to make guns easy access to not break verisimilitude.

Perhaps, but you couldn't say the same if you're allowing characters to buy innate DR with or without reflection.

You could have zero supers take IA and DR with Reflection would still be useful even if we ignore melee attacks.

That's true for IA as well. IA even better when you have zero supers with DR or Reflection and ignore melee.

I'm not attacking DR. I just don't see why you are down on Innate Attacks, especially for the value and utility they provide.

Actually, reading that I think I didn't make it a further enhancement. I think I did a bit more complex thing than PK; Power Block to 'gain control' of it, then a skill roll to actually hit with it. I think the player took No Roll Required to be able to do this easily. (It's been too long, I'd likely do things differently now)

He was treating as a Power Block variant. NRR can't make defenses automatic.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by naloth

Guns might be more concealable, but they aren't something you'll want to have in your hand, ready to go while cruising around town.

Yes, but they are far easier to maneuver and gain access to in general situations. In fact I got a gun through airport security more easily than kevlar.

Originally Posted by naloth

All of those others are good attacks, but I just don't see them as often as Innate Attacks.

Maybe I'm just too used to how easily they can shut down combat. Note that I'm talking about largely unmodified IAs based around that 5pt cost. Fatigue Attacks are amazingly useful, but at twice the price they should be.

Originally Posted by naloth

Like most things, it's just a comparison. IA trumps DR in terms one to one usefulness. DR is more useful if you're taking attacks from lots of different sources.

In the situation most suited to IA, IA should beat DR. That's a good thing. Otherwise IA would be worthless.

Originally Posted by naloth

Perhaps, but you couldn't say the same if you're allowing characters to buy innate DR with or without reflection.

What? I'm not sure I see what point you are making.

Originally Posted by naloth

I'm not attacking DR. I just don't see why you are down on Innate Attacks, especially for the value and utility they provide.

My bad, I wasn't trying to be down on Innate Attacks. I think they are good and useful. If anything I think they are slightly overcosted except Fatigue. All my point is that DR is usually as good if not better than IA. I think the biggest thing to remember is that DR is commonly limited in ways that still lets it be DR while IA isn't often limited because most limitations significantly change it's utility.

Originally Posted by naloth

He was treating as a Power Block variant. NRR can't make defenses automatic.

Normal defenses, no, but Power Blocks don't seem like normal defense rolls, especially this one in particular. I was using NRR to make the 'attack' that Reflection gives you always succeed which is something that is common but not guaranteed with Reflection already. It won't make you take any less damage. Even if it isn't legal, it still seems overpriced and a new enhancement might make more sense.