Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Do you claim that scientist Alex Mercer of [Prototype] is the same person as Alex Mercer the morph? (They share the worldline, but that's about it.)

I should mention that I have no idea who Alex Mercer is. But if the two you refer to share a worldline, and if they are both persons at all, then they are the same person. That's what "the same" means when we are speaking of physical objects.

Bill Stoddard

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I'm talking about its being the same hard drive. When we talk about physical entities, "the same" means being on the same worldline. My external hard drive now is on the same worldline as the external hard drive that was shipped from the factory several years ago, and therefore it is the same physical object.

And I am a physical organism. That's my identity.

Bill Stoddard

This isn't getting anywhere. To me, a person is the information/mind, while to you, the person is the body/organism/medium. That's about as much as the two of us can reach as far as mutually accepted conclusions go.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

This isn't getting anywhere. To me, a person is the information/mind, while to you, the person is the body/organism/medium. That's about as much as the two of us can reach as far as mutually accepted conclusions go.

We should also mention that there is little distinction between a religious belief in mind and a more typical religious belief in soul, so we could clarify the views as:

Transhumanists = person is information/mind/soul

Religious types = person is mind/soul

Non-transhumanists = person is body/medium

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

We should also mention that there is little distinction between a religious belief in mind and a more typical religious belief in soul, so we could clarify the views as:

Transhumanists = person is information/mind/soul

Religious types = person is mind/soul

Non-transhumanists = person is body/medium

I find this equation weird. Souls supposedly continue existing and even changing and communicating, even after all the mediums/bodies carrying it are destroyed.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I find this equation weird. Souls supposedly continue existing and even changing and communicating, even after all the mediums/bodies carrying it are destroyed.

Which is why when Transhumanists say they believe in a mind/soul existing after changing mediums from a physical body into computer storage, that is directly equivalent to the religious belief in a soul/mind carrying on after the medium/body is destroyed/dies.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I find this equation weird. Souls supposedly continue existing and even changing and communicating, even after all the mediums/bodies carrying it are destroyed.

There's a reason that the Singularity has been nicknamed "the rapture of the nerds."

Bill Stoddard

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

This isn't getting anywhere. To me, a person is the information/mind, while to you, the person is the body/organism/medium. That's about as much as the two of us can reach as far as mutually accepted conclusions go.

It's getting to the point where each of us can clearly identify the other's basic premise, and attempt to model how the other will think about derivative issues. I don't consider that a trivial accomplishment, but then I've spent a lot of time discussing things with people who don't share my worldview—more often about politics than about the nature of personal identity, though (though to be sure the two aren't wholly unrelated!). If you're prepared to admit that FROM MY POINT OF VIEW destructive uploading as defined in THS is not survival, but reproduction accompanied by suicide, then you've understood my position. If it helps, you might try thinking of it as an exercise in understanding an alien mind and culture, a very sfnal sort of thing to do.

Bill Stoddard

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Which is why when Transhumanists say they believe in a mind/soul existing after changing mediums from a physical body into computer storage, that is directly equivalent to the religious belief in a soul/mind carrying on after the medium/body is destroyed/dies.

But only reincarnist religions provide a new medium.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

But only reincarnist religions provide a new medium.

That's debatable, having your soul ascend into heaven can be described as your mind now being in an astral/spiritual medium.

Having your soul join into a greater whole, be it Nirvana or God, can be described as information/data merger as your mind enters the information storage medium of Nirvana/God.

As Bill quoted, transhumanist singularity is "the rapture of the nerds."

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by whswhs

It's getting to the point where each of us can clearly identify the other's basic premise, and attempt to model how the other will think about derivative issues. I don't consider that a trivial accomplishment, but then I've spent a lot of time discussing things with people who don't share my worldview—more often about politics than about the nature of personal identity, though (though to be sure the two aren't wholly unrelated!). If you're prepared to admit that FROM MY POINT OF VIEW destructive uploading as defined in THS is not survival, but reproduction accompanied by suicide, then you've understood my position. If it helps, you might try thinking of it as an exercise in understanding an alien mind and culture, a very sfnal sort of thing to do.

Bill Stoddard

I have to admit that if I took the definition of 'me' to refer exclusively to my body, I would think of ghosting as death too. I pity the infomorphs who use such a definition, though.

I guess as far as holy wars go, The Identity Question has ended rather well. Should we round up any remaining issues and symbolically seal the thread, until someone brings up the question once again? :)