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Old 07-15-2010, 11:19 PM   #51
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Rolelaying (Verbal) Intimidation - seeking various examples

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Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
W]ell, in the movies, the intimidation attempt is set up in such a way (generally) to look convincing if you don't think about it much, or by the 'rules' of genre fiction. For ex, Dirty Harry, in real life, would not be a cop for long. Even back in the 70s, he'd have soon ended up facing charges unless the entire department was corrupt (and not in the sense that the department is corrupt in the usual Dirty Harry movie).
Isn't that beside the point? Harry Callahan wasn't all that interested in intimidating punks anyway. He wanted them to call his bluff, so he could kill them and not have to worry about how his substandard policework would surely get them acquitted if he took them in alive.

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It might work once or a few times...then he's gone, no longer a cop at best, and the people who used to be afraid of him aren't anymore.
Yeah, now he's not a cop. He's just a crazy guy with a gun. Who'd be afraid of that?

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Jack Bauer? Terrifying in a fictional world set up to make him unrealistically scary against unrealistic enemies and backed up by unbelievable and unrealistic support. Jack Bauer in an even semi-realistic setting? Not scary, not even terribly impressive.
In that he doesn't use the threats that a real federal agent would use, sure. But then Jack Bauer uses Interrogation, not Intimidation.

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How many times does the Crime Boss send the thugs around to beat the **** out of the heroic P.I.? Why, exactly, does he bother?
Once, usually. Only because he's never met him before. A twist that turned up reasonably frequently was sending thugs to intimidate the heroic P.I. just to make sure he'll work the case he was being warned off from.

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If he can arrange an accident for the guy who knows too much, why warn him at all?
This is the end of a real conversation between an investigative reporter and a Yakuza:

"I need a real answer."

"Good luck with that. Just make sure to stay out of my way."

"I don't know if that's possible."

He leaned forward a little and said very softly, "You were lucky once. Don't tempt fate. You were allowed to live because you were useful. Once Goto is gone, people may see you differently. Cross me or my people the wrong way, and we'll crush you. There are ways to do that without even laying a finger on you."

Last edited by David Johnston2; 07-15-2010 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 07-15-2010, 11:39 PM   #52
Kyle Aaron
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Default Re: Rolelaying (Verbal) Intimidation - seeking various examples

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Originally Posted by Fwibos View Post
Unfortunately, in this day and age intimidating words don't seem to do much (or everyone is ridiculously bad at it).
The latter. When it's default skill vs ordinary willpower, well it usually won't work.

I heard a rumour once that a chef was sexually harassing a waitress, and had been asked to stop, and he wouldn't. The head chef wouldn't do anything, so another chef took him aside.

"I think you should leave her alone."
"Nah she likes me."
"No, she doesn't. She asked me to sort it out. She just wants a pleasant work environment."
"I'll do what I want! You can't tell me what to do."
"Have you ever heard of karma?"
"What?"
"It's an Eastern concept. The idea that what goes around, comes around. Whatever you do, good or bad, it comes back to you. Nobody tries to make it happen, the universe makes it happen."
"What are you talking about?"
"The kitchen is a dangerous place. We have hard metal counters, slippery floors, open flame, boiling water, hot oil - and sharp knives. Accidents happen in the kitchen. Karma's like that. Someone treats a co-worker badly, and he has an accident. It's terrible to see. I would not want you to have an accident in our kitchen. Karma."

The offending chef, the rumour goes, then behaved himself.

Remember that the description of intimidation skill is that you "convince the subject that you are able and willing, perhaps even eager, to do something awful to him."

Threats of physical violence constitute assault in most jurisdictions, punishable by up to two years' imprisonment. Threats of what we could call social violence - exposing secrets, etc - constitute blackmail, which also carries a prison sentence.

But even absent the law, most people are not willing to do something awful to someone else. Fewer still are eager. Of those who are willing and eager, most are not really able.

Remember also that successful intimidation skill use can have effects beyond that one encounter. In a lawless world, it may gain you respect generally, but done too often can lead to frequent fights or people conspiring against you to remove your cruel influence. In a civilised society, it can lead to loss of job, or to people other than the intimidated person fearing and avoiding you. Threaten a co-worker, and you may find other co-workers less friendly. Socially there really is karma.
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Old 07-17-2010, 11:52 PM   #53
Johnny1A.2
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Default Re: Rolelaying (Verbal) Intimidation - seeking various examples

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Originally Posted by Infornific View Post


* One noble or diplomat making a subtle threat at another, in an attempt to get some political favor.

The NPC might regretfully note that certain actions may be necessary for domestic political reasons that would be regrettable for the PC. Unsophisticated PCs may need an IQ roll to get the hint.

"Now I understand why you're angry with Lord Valdren. But his family is powerful and popular back home. Our Emperor simply can't allow a foreigner to harass him and would be obliged to contact your king and ask for assistance, or possibly be compelled to take more drastic actions. I speak purely in hypotheticals of course. You're far too sensible a man to start a course of action that would lead to unfortunate consequences for all of us."
That touches on an entirely different social skill in a gaming situation, persuasion of a person to do, or not do, something totally opposite of what he naturally wants to do. Intimidation can be used for that...but the above scenario could be easily recast in such a way that it's really a friend of the subject trying to dissuade him from doing something dumb.

Heck, a genuine friend, with your best interest in mind, could try to intimidate you by proxy, that is, convince the subject that a third party is eager and able to hurt him, with the subject's best interests in mind.

(Gaming hypothetical: If I (as a fellow PC) am trying to convince my best buddy not to go pick a fight with the guy who's having an affair with his wife, said guy being a skilled combatant and a member of the local mob to boot, and I do it by pointing all all the nasty things that could follow from it, am I using Intimidation? Or some other social skill? Keeping in mind that I really do have his best interests in mind as I do it.)

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Social intimidation - the NPC doesn't threaten violence, he threatens the target socially. Alternately, the NPC insults the target's ability - imagine one nerd mocking another nerd's knowledge base.
This is no joke. There are people who would be swayed by social intimidation well before the threat of violence would move them, for whatever reasons. In extreme cases 'social violence' (for want of a better term) has led to suicide, certainly the threat of ostracization or public ridicule can be extremely potent against certain personality types.
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Old 07-18-2010, 12:07 AM   #54
Johnny1A.2
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Default Re: Rolelaying (Verbal) Intimidation - seeking various examples

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Isn't that beside the point? Harry Callahan wasn't all that interested in intimidating punks anyway. He wanted them to call his bluff, so he could kill them and not have to worry about how his substandard policework would surely get them acquitted if he took them in alive.
Which is why I said the entire scenario of 'Dirty Harry' as an example of intimidation is unrealistic and implausible (by realistic standards). The thing is, Dirty Harry is fundamentally bluffing, in reverse. As you note, he'd rather they call his 'bluff' so he can kill them...but his kill rate is so high that he's soon not going to be a cop anymore.

Furthermore, any brighter breed of crook (and not all crooks are dumb) is going to realize that they can rapidly short-circuit Calahan just by surrendering every time. That forces him to put them in the hands of the dysfunctional justice system that his movie-role is to bypass. Naturally, sinc eit would short-circuit the story, most of his targets don't realize that to surrender to Dirty Harry is to win.

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Yeah, now he's not a cop. He's just a crazy guy with a gun. Who'd be afraid of that?
Lots of civilians and small-time low-life. But it's the fact that he's a cop that makes him scary to the serious offenders, killing him sets off a whole chain of nasty side-effects. Killing the crazy guy with the gun is self-defense. Once he's off the force, he's either going to hang up that gun, or he'll soon be the late Dirty Harry...or in prison for starting trouble.

(And as a cop or former cop, prison is something Calahan should fear.)

I'm not running down the DH movies, they're good movies for what they are, I'm just pointing out that they make lousy realistic examples of the use of intimidation skill. The crooks in the movies never do the things that would make DH's whole approach futile.

Quote:

In that he doesn't use the threats that a real federal agent would use, sure. But then Jack Bauer uses Interrogation, not Intimidation.
He uses intimidation based on the fear of interrogation, and uses it in ways that in real life would more likely provoke laughter than fear. It really starting getting ridiculous in later episodes, when just being stared at by Bauer could break people.

Again, this requires that the villains behave in precisely the ways necessary to make the story work, and do so repeatedly.

And again, as in the example of the cop, it's the organization behind him that makes Bauer a threat to his enemies, and that organization is utterly unrealistic, not merely for setting-based reasons of technology or other qualities, but of human nature. Same deal with another show by the same creators, La Femme Nikita.
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Old 07-18-2010, 12:29 AM   #55
Johnny1A.2
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Default Re: Rolelaying (Verbal) Intimidation - seeking various examples

As I said upthread, you don't have to game any closer to reality than you want to, but if you do want a somewhat realistic (in terms of human nature) scenario, consider that some of the common tropes of fiction don't make a lot of sense in many cases, but are narratively or dramtically useful.

For example, in all sorts of genre's the protagonist may receive an intimidating warning to 'back off' or something bad will happen to the protagonist or a loved one(s). Now, sometimes that makes rational sense, but not always. The protagonist has to be a plausible threat to the villain (unless the villian in nuts) before he'll get a warning, and if the villain is rational the warning will be given only if there's some reason that getting the hero to back off is advantageous over other approaches.

Also, if you're assuming a smart, capable villain with some resources, s/he probably won't issue the intimidating warning, and then start planning what to do if the hero refuses. Instead, s/he'll more likely have something ready to go to make the hero take the threat seriously before the first move.

Imagine the following scenario: an honest, capable DA, Smith, is prosecuting someone (call him Thug) that the villain (a smart, connected, ruthless man with considerable intelligence, call him Jones) wants released. The DA has an ex-wife and two kids, and knows people who owe him favors from the past who could impose some nasty violence on someone who gives the DA's family trouble.

So will Jones issue a warning against the DA's kin? Yes, but not immediately. Moving precipitately might give the DA a chance to call in some of the favors he's owed, and make trouble for Jones (who has good security but is too smart to assume it's impenetrable, and who may have loved ones of his own).

So Jones won't make any angry intemperate threats. Instead he'll have his people profile the DA, his family, their movements, locations, habits, etc. When that information is in hand, then Jones decides it's time to move, he visits the DA by proxy, shows him pictures of his family and friends taken by long lens, lists of their habits, hangouts, etc, and informs him that his son now has a broken arm from an 'accident', but no worse and nothing permanent...yet.

The broken arm indicates that Jones' is not kidding, and the threat now becomes that either the case against Thug goes south, or x, y, and z specific things happen at specific times to specific people. Jones also informs the DA that he's being watched, and any attempt to call in any outside assistance will result in the bad things happening immediately.

In fact, since Jones is smart, he informs the DA that if it even looks like he's calling in outside help, legal or otherwise, the hammer immediately falls. Ditto any attempt to move or hide his kin.

The point here is that Jones doesn't bluster, issue second warnings, or anything of the sort, he never approaches the DA personally or shows his face or name, and he sets it up carefully before hand so that there's no time for the DA to do anything.

From Smith's POV, he already knows his son has a broken arm, so the threat has to be taken seriously. He knows from the pictures and information he's been shown that whoever sent the messengers knows a lot of things. Is his phone bugged? Maybe not...but if it is he can't use it to try and arrange any sort of help or revenge. Just how is he being watched? By who? Who around him has been suborned, if any?

Smith has no way to know how much of Jones' claims about what Smith can get away with quietly are true. If Jones is smart, he'll set up a time limit, to keep the pressure on.

The point here is Jones' prior preparation, and careful work. The formal attempt at intimidation doesn't even start until after some preparatory work. In game terms, this puts big bonuses on the intimidation roll.

Obviously that's not a universal situation, but it's a more realistic example of what a smart and well-connected master villain might try as intimidation than is often seen in genre fictions.
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